Ottenbach ZH - death - year? - Sidler Johannes
Ottenbach ZH - burial - ? - Sidler - Johannes
When did Johannes Sidler die? Billeter didn't find the date. I found a 3 possibilities. Could you take a look and see if any make sense? Most likely none of them work. The Ottenbach burial records are not available from 1644-1659. I have no idea why.
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1625 #22: verkündt 7 Aug 25: Hans Sydler, Heinis Sun.
The death was announced 07 Aug 1625 - with the father mentioned - so this was a child. 1625 is not a possibility anyway - Hans' "Hußfrouw" died 1627 - not his widow: Hans Sidler (born 1583 was alive in 1627.
15 Sep 1664: Hanßli, Hanß Sÿdlers Stehlis allhir eh(liches) Söhnli.
Again a child - son of Hans Sidler Stehlis: Stehlis could be a nickname for the Sidler line from a Sidler married to a Stehli. As Sidler was such a common name in the parish it would have been common to have nicknames for lines, could be to a profession, behaviour or a maternal line.
12 Junij 1667: Hanßli, Hans Sÿdlers gnt. Strehli hir eh(liches) Söhnli
Younger brother oft the above - proving that Stehli(s) (gnt. = genannt = named/called) is the nickname of a Sidler line.
20 Februa(r) 1675: Hannß Sÿdler der Jung allhir zu Ottenbach.
"der Jung" usually implies that at the time two men with the same name lived in the parish. The Hans in question was born 1583, i.e. about 92 years old - unlikely the younger one of two being alive then.
Conclusion: none of these four entries will be the death record for Hans (born 1583). As the death records are not complete, most likely Hans' death will fall into this gap - but how large is the gap? You mention 1644-1659 ... but this does not agree with the State Archive catalogue: yes, there is a gap, but should be much shorter. Here is the info from the catalogue:
E III 88.3: Tote 1658-1739.
E III 88.2: Tote 1647-1655, 1623-1636, 1641-1647. This indicates that the records are not kept chronologically correct, but there is a mess - but the actual gap should only be 1637-1640. I would therefore recommend you check whether you can find the "missing years" - might include a few more Hans Sidler entries.
There is an additional note: Tote 1647-1657: 1656: Tod zweier Bürger durch Ertrinken in der Reuss. So there might be another small section covering special circumstances 1647-1657 (although possibly just the one in 1656).
Have you checked Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach yet? The oldest one is dated 1634 and could include the answer to your search … see directly at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVK-N9NX-Z.
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WSeelentag Thanks for looking at all those documents!!
I do understand that the Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse are religious records or censuses. Sometimes I find them very helpful. They give you an idea of where each family member is in their religious education.
The Zurich Archives are a different story. Let me know if this is correct: The catalogue is an organized list of Zurich records by Parish. They give each document an archive number and are listed with a short description. You are not able to see the actual documents.
In the case of marriages the Archive gives you the names of the couple and the date of their marriage and where the marriage took place. This is very helpful. However their list is limited because it doesn't include 1500s and 1600s marriages. Am I on the right track? 🤔
I will keep looking tomorrow.
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Slow 😉 - you have to clearly distinguish between the State Archive (as an institution) and the resources they hold (which can be researched in their catalogue). To sort the catalogue all archives will have signature numbers. In the catalogue entry there will be a more or less detailed description of a given source - but (at least for the sources of interest in genealogy in ZH) there are no digitized documents available online.
Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse are some sort of census, compiled by the pastors. They usually contain info on religious education, but more important for genealogy are 1) the compilation of entire families (similar to Familien-/Bürgerregister), though at a given time (e.g. children already married will not be included any longer, but have their separate entries), and 2) that they may contain baptismal, marriage or (rarely even) death dates which (e.g. in case of gaps) you don't find in the baptismal, marriage or death registers; if no dates are given, at least ages will be given, allowing you to estimate e.g. years of birth. This is why I would check these records next! See Geneal-Forum for a few examples.
You are looking for the death entry of Hans Sidler (1583). We know he was alive in 1627 - is he still listed in the 1634 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis? This will tell us if he died before or after 1634, and so on, even if no direct death information is given.
The Zurich Archives are a different story. Yes - a completely different story - not a source, but an institution - two things you cannot compare.
The Zürcher Ehedatenbank (EDB) is something special: an index database of all marriage entries in canton Zürich prior to 1800 - starting with the oldest records surviving until today (1525 city of Zürich) … so marriages 1500s and 1600s are included if(!) the corresponding records still exist. The data were collected privately, later bought by the State Archive and integrated into their catalogue: each entry was given a signature number to be found under each marriage register in the catalogue. Whilst you can search for them using the standard catalogue search, they have programmed this special search tool just for this database.
In the Sidler list on Geneal-Forum I have included links to EDB for all marriages included in EDB. For two generations I have found no data in EDB - so most likely the corresponding marriage records have not survived - or the couples got married outside the canton - or the entries were missed when compiling the index (which cannot be excluded, of course).
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WSeelentag Wolf: This is very helpful information. Thanks for taking the time to explain how the Archives work. I visited there in 2019 and never really got the whole picture. This is particularly true in their marriage records. Thanks for your patience in helping me understand how it all work!!!!😋. You are awesome
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