Amsoldingen BE - marriage - 1684 - Wenger&Nafzger - Latin translation

Gina Palmer

9 November 1684 marriage of Ulrich Wenger and Anna Nafzger

The description following the groom's name looks like "Mendacio praeditu[s]" the translation of which that I have found so far means "gifted liar." Is this correct? Is there more to be understood here?

The complete record can be found on image 240 of the following PDF https://www.query.sta.be.ch/Dateien/18/D94069.pdf

Daniel57704

I agree with your interpretation. There is that 'tandem aliquando' which can be translated by 'finally finally' and I can hear the priest sigh 😀

I am adding the rest just in case:

No. [#] 73. [Monday] den 10. 9bris [November 10] hab ich ynge-

segnet tandem aliquando sequentes [I finally married the following]

Ulrich Wenger mendacio praeditus [gifted liar]

von Forst [from Forst; today Forst-Längenbühl], und Anna Nafzger des

Meister Zacharia Nafzgers Tochter [and Anna Nafzger, daughter of master Zacharia Nafzger]

aus der Kilchhöri Thierachern [from the parish of Thierachern]

Daniel57704

According to the register of Swiss surnames (https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/famn/?lg=e) the family name 'Wenger' is native (among other places) to Amsoldingen, Blumenstein, Forst, Höfen, Längenbühl, Oberstocken, Pohlern, Thierachern, Uebeschi, Uetendorf and Wattenwil. These places are all located close to each other west of Thun. I therefore assume, that unlike the first name, the family name was very common in this area.

I had to guess a few times while deciphering the text. Scanning probably sometimes produced artifacts from insignificant color spots that are not easy to interpret now. Sometimes they look like a comma or some other punctuation mark. By and large, I agree with your transcription, so I will only list the posts that raised questions with you, mostly because they are written like we speak in our local dialect. At the end of the 17th century, there was still no binding orthography.

- [und bracht für] -> in German we now would say 'er brachte vor' = he brought up

- Zinstags [Tuesday?] -> Tuesday is correct

- Hebammen [?] -> Hebammen is correct

- die Einte [??? word for from?] -> written as it is spoken in the local dialect. Correct German today is 'die Eine'.

- Jetendorff [could this be Uetendorf?] -> yes!

- heißte [? – not sure if this is just a comma or some other type of symbol] -> I am not sure either. It could also be a symbol for the end of a sentence. There are similar symbols throughout the text (e.g. after 'Hebamme') that would make sense in all cases.

- [Stin?] -> I'm reading 'Stiny' which is short for 'Christine'

- Rupp [?] -> Rupp is correct. Among other places this name is native to Steffisburg and Teuffenthal (east of Thun) and Reutigen (south of Thun)

- Wäber [?] -> todays spelling is 'Weber'. This name is native to Gerzensee (north of Thun) among a lot of places in the Solothurn - Biel - Murten - Burgdorf area.

- welche Alle; -> I don't see any reason for a semicolon here because the relative clause has just begun.

- Ihren Zugesprich: -> I assume it should read 'Ihnen Zugesprechen'. The midwives were required by the court to question the unmarried woman during labor. This was called 'Genisstverhör' (see https://www.rex-buch.ch/pdf/770e54419533fb0f1469451c6b295de.pdf)

- [meinug] -> today's spelling is 'Meinung'

- [Z?ollem] -> I read 'Zfollem' which is local term for the German 'recht' in the sense that Elsbeth could not recover properly.

- ge[be?t] -> 'Gebet' makes sense and could even be written with a double e

- und Vergebung -> I read 'umb Vergebung'. Together with the above results in 'Gebet um(b) Vergebung'

- Martins Käg -> It should read 'Martins Tag'. November 11 is the name day of Martin.

Gina Palmer

@Daniel57704 Thank you.

I found the following baptism entry from 1677, I wonder if this is the same Uli Wenger (it wasn't a common name in the parish).

This is what I could decipher. I understand German, so don't need a translation, but if you have anything to add or correct in the transcription, that would be great. To see the full page, see image 55 on the PDF link above.

No. 37, d. [Freitag] den. 9. [November] kam Hans Wenger in Längenbüel, alß Schwager des Elßbeth Sägismann von Wattenwyl, [?] neüwlich wegen Ihres Groß-Schwangeren Leibs, allhier vor Chorgricht gewesen, etc. laut fol: 148 [und bracht für] wie daß sein Gschwey, obgemelte Elsbeth Sägisman, Vergangenen Zinstags [Tuesday?] den 6. [Nov] morgens früht, Eines Jungen Sohns darunterkommen, und daß in Beysein dreye eheliche Weibs Persohnen alß Hebammen [?] die Einte [??? word for from?] Jetendorff [could this be Uetendorf?], die Andern Zwo auß der Nachbarschaft, die einte wiße Er nit wie Sie heißte [? – not sure if this is just a comma or some other type of symbol] die andere habe Zum Eheman Uli Wenger [?] die heißt [Stin?] Rupp [?] und die drite, Hans Kißligs Weib Elßbeth, Wäber [?] welche Alle; in der Action-scharftsgebührend, nach befelch Eines Chorgrichts allhier, Ihren Zugesprich: den rechten Vater dieses Ihres Kinds anzugeben etc. Darüber Sie bey Ihren alten [meinug] von Versprechn beständig verbleiben, auch daß Sie sonsten mit keinem Mensch etwas zu thun gehabt, alß mit des Alten Uli Wengers Sohn, auch Uli Wenger, der anjetzo im Würtemberger Land etc und Sie darüber, weilen Sie nit [Z?ollem] gnäsen etc. nach eyfrigem ge[be?t] und Vergebung Ihrer Sünden, seelig gestorben und Donstags den 8. [Nov] Zu Watenwyl begraben worden [?]

--------

No. 37 daß Kind ist darauf getauft worden Sontags den 11. dito in Martins Käg Und heißte sei Namm Peter

Parent: Uli Wenger der Jünger und Obgemelte Elßbeth Sägisman

Gina Palmer

@Daniel57704 Thank you so much for taking the time to review and provide feedback. That was really helpful. In most cases where I had [?] it was a standalone for the symbol or punctuation mark, not necessarily a question about the preceding word/name. Sorry about the confusion on that.