Birth of Francesco Borrelli - A real mystery
1) Francesco Borrelli married his bride Rosina Saporito in 1883 in the town of Paterno Calabro. According to their marriage record, both were born in Paterno Calabro. This is the link to their marriage record
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35985026 IMAGE 7
Originally I read the record as Francesco was 33 and Rosina was 27. I searched 1850 and found a Francesco Palma Borrelli...but.. it showed completely different parents than what was on their marriage record.
2) I then found Francesco's parent's marriage record BUT that was in Nov. of 1855
Francesco Saverio Borrelli & Rosa Stumpo Marriage Record
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35976652 IMAGE 24
So I thought maybe I read the dates wrong and he was only 23 instead of 33. I searched many years on and around 1860 but no luck either. Both the groom's parents were both living in Paterno Calabro.
3) There is no marriage processetti for the year of 1883. I'm not sure if I missed something obvious any thoughts or help would be appreciated - Carl
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I went to look at the 1883 marriage publication record (https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35984990 image 7) and it says the groom was born in Cleto, so you ought to look there!
It's odd though that you find the groom's parents' marriage in 1855. It's possible they had the groom out of wedlock (his birth record should say so if that's the case), but it may also be a 2nd couple with similar names (very unlikely but not impossible). Since we see that the father of the groom is dead but the mother of the groom is still alive in 1883, you can use that information to investigate this situation further.
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Indeed, he was born in Cleto, specifically in the community of Savuto (https://www.google.com/maps/place/87030+Savuto,+Province+of+Cosenza,+Italy)!
Here is his birth record: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35981056 image 6
The parents are married and are quite a bit older than the couple marrying in 1855. It's clear then that the 1855 marriage is an unrelated couple who coincidentally have similar names! It's very good then that you questioned this because accepting the 1855 couple and studying their ancestry would have been incorrect!
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@joseph99929 Oh Joseph, I have an awful pit in my stomach right now, because if you are correct than all of the research ( 3 additional generations is lost with both the spouse branches and francesco's line and branches). I have to head out tonight, but I would like to provide some additional information tomorrow... please be wrong Joseph :)
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The 1850 birth in Cleto is certainly correct, because as you know, at marriage, the clerks prepared a full file including the birth certificates of the spouses. Therefore, the birthplaces, ages, and parents' names on a marriage record are sacrosanct. They did indeed make an error on the 1883 marriage record, writing that the groom was born in Paterno Calabro, but the 1883 publication is crystal-clear since at the bottom it says the mayor of Paterno received the groom's birth certificate from the mayor of Cleto.
The 1850 birth in Paterno is certainly incorrect because that Francesco Palma Borrelli actually dies as a baby (https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35976623 image 25).
All things considered, though, it's still very uncommon to find two couples with identical names living in the same community (Saverio/Francesco Saverio as well as Rosa/Maria Rosa are equivalent names for all intents and purposes). It could well be that the 1850 parents and the 1855 spouses are one and the same individuals. It's possible the 1850 birth has incorrect ages and incorrectly names the parents as married. However, for a birth record to be wrong in so many ways is also quite uncommon, not to mention that out-of-wedlock births were extremely rare too pre-1865! So, both scenarios are quite unlikely, making it impossible to choose one or the other without additional evidence! You will need to study the births, marriages, and deaths in both comunes very thoroughly to find any traces of this family (or families), searching for births, marriages, and deaths of all your ancestor's siblings for clues. This is not an easy situation at all, yet it remains a very interesting one, so do kindly keep me updated on what you discover!
All this said, your work on the ancestry of your other ancestor, Rosina Saporito, should be completely unaffected by this finding.
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Let me share some additional records.
1) Death Record of Francesco Borrelli (husband of Rosina Saporito) Sadly he got his wife pregnant in 1884 and died before his son was born in early 1885. He died in Paterno Calabro. But on his death record it also shows he was born in Cleto.
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35985061 IMAGE 10
It shows his wife noted and his mother Rosa Stumpo appears to be still living and his father Saverio was dead. Could someone take a careful look at the record to see if anything else is notable? I was also wondering what Saverios's occupation was?
2) Moving down to his son (Another Francesco Borrelli) who was born in Paterno Calabro in 1885.
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35941527 IMAGE 12
This record is what started my search in Paterno Calabro. This Francesco immigrated to the USA when he was 16. I have his immigration information. There is quite a bit of information at the bottom. Could someone take a close look and tell me if anything notable is said?
3) I've searched a lot of marriage records in Cleto searching for the marriage of Saverio Borrelli and Rosa Stumpo and have struck out so far.
Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated - Carl
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The death record matches up nicely of course, and it seems the mother Rosa Stumpo is indeed still living. Have you ever found her death record? Saverio's occupation is "pastore" = shepherd, the same occupation we saw for him we saw on the 1850 Cleto birth and the 1883 Paterno marriage.
Otherwise, the 1884 death and 1885 birth records are perfectly standard, except of course that the father in 1885 is deceased.
I too tried to find a marriage in Cleto before 1850. It's much easier to prove a positive than a negative, so finding that 2nd marriage record would immediately resolve everything. Unfortunately though, there doesn't appear to be anything there!
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I'm going to continue looking for both the Death Record of Rosa Stumpo along with a marriage record for her and Saverio Borrelli.
I'm a little worried, based on their ages on Francescos birth certificate she would have been born around 1810 and Saverio like 1806. There are no records before 1809 so I would never find Saverios Birth records, but I checked Cleto birth records in 1809-1811 and found nothing on Rosa. Further more when I use the Cosenza site https://www.postercosenza.beniculturali.it/and search for Borrelli or Stumpo (no first names or dates) in Cleto, absolutely nothing comes up.
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Ages on birth records are frequently off by a couple years, and so should never be taken as exact. That said, if the 1855 marriage is correct, they'd be misstated by a good 15+ years which is not normal.
My strategy would be to of course try to find those missing death records, but also to search for other children born to the same parents. If for example, you find a sibling born in Cleto but dying in Paterno as a child, this can help establish when the family moved, or more interestingly if you find siblings born in Cleto and/or Paterno less than 9 months apart, this proves definitely that 2 couples existed simultaneously!
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Interestingly, if you look at this 1855 birth in Paterno (https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35976648 image 27), the parents are not indicated as married.
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It would be interesting to see your ancestor's original 11 Feb 1850 baptism record in Savuto. Although church baptism records do not give the ages of parents, they do indicate if the parents are married or not, and they also often indicate the parents' place of origin, if not originally from the community.
Church records from this area are not online, so this is something that would have to be done on-site at the original parish churches. Note that church records in Italy are not considered public records, despite their importance for genealogy, especially pre-1809 genealogy. Therefore, any research requires special permission from the parish, which is never guaranteed to be granted!
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In this period of time, would the catholic church even baptize a child, if the parents were not legally married?
Unfortunately, I would never be able to do any on-site research in Italy. I hope the catholic church records will come on line at some point. I lucked out when I was doing research for my godfather's family who was from Bagheria.
The birth link you sent is definitely a child from the parents who I thought were the parents of Francesco. I'm going to continue tomorrow to search for the death record of Rosa Stumpo. Going to call it a night, I really appreciate all your help Joseph - Carl
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To answer your question, yes, the baptism would still take place. In any case, we know the baptism details for your ancestor because they're indicated on the right-hand side of the birth record: 11 Feb 1850, in the church of Savuto.
Good luck with this search! I hope you're able to find a piece of evidence to prove this one way or the other.
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Well I found a Rosa Stumpo death record, but based on her age and the year of death, it is the "original" Rosa Stumpo (who was born in the 1820's). I'm still searching older death records and have quite away to go, but I thought I would share this one
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/detail-registry/?s_id=35985073 IMAGE 9
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@Harleynut97 Since we know for sure that your Rosa Stumpo was still alive in Paterno in 1883, by searching all the deaths 1883-1910, if we find that this is the only Rosa Stumpo, it really should be the correct one. For this to be incorrect, your Rosa Stumpo would have had to die in another comune, which is not likely. The age matches the 1855 marriage, but it's a real shame nobody remembered her parents' names! Similarly, I took the liberty of searching the deaths in Paterno 1855-1883 and found only one Saverio Borrelli, who died 1863, with matching parents and age from 1855. It is still important to repeat these searches in Cleto though, just to be safe.
But with this fact, and also the fact that the 1855 couple was clearly active premaritally (not a common thing in this time), these are all points in favor of the 1850 birth being yet another premarital birth, and that the ages and marital status on the birth record are wrong. If we find no other births in Cleto to this family, then we know they were just there temporarily, and not really part of the community, so the clerk might be more likely to make these sorts of mistakes as he would not have known them personally.
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@joseph99929 I went through death records in Paterino Calabro today from 1828-1910. The only Rosa Stumpo who died was in 1896 and Saverio Borrelli who died in 1863 as you mentioned. I did find a number of other ancestors' death dates while going through them.
Tomorrow I am moving over to Cleto. I'll followup with you if I find anything. Thanks for keeping interest in this Joseph. - Carl
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@joseph99929 Just an update, I went through every year of marriage records, beginning in 1850 and going back to 1820 in Cleto and did not find a single name of Borrelli or Stumpo. I even looked for last names of other relatives (from Paterno Calabro) and did not see one. What brought this couple to Crete when they had Francesco is a big mystery.
I still want to check death records in Cleto for Rosa Stumpo beginning in 1883-1910, I doubt I will find any but I want to rule it out - Carl
EDIT Just finished going through death records 1883-1910 for Cleto. No Rosa Stumpo or any Stumpo names or Borrelli
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@Harleynut97 Cleto records from 1866 on are available freely on FamilySearch: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/420306
If you find zero other evidence of this couple's existence in Cleto, then that the 1855 marriage becomes much more likely.
We know for a fact that the 1855 couple was active and cohabitating before marriage, so having the 1850 birth be out of wedlock is no longer extraordinary. Since he was a shepherd, it's very possible too that they transiently lived in different places.
If you find no other evidence in Cleto, then the alternative becomes quite convoluted: Your ancestor would have to be born in a town away from his family's origins, then coincidentally move to a third town (Paterno) that just happens to have a couple with the same names who had children out of wedlock, and of top of that, his mother would have to still be alive in 1883 at over 70 years old, while the woman with the same also be alive, and the man with the same name as his father has to also be dead. This is quite a string of coincidences!
I think it's very important and good that you investigate the records in Cleto as thoroughly as possible to rule out everything, but once that's done, the preponderance of the evidence will be very much in favor of accepting the 1855 marriage as fact. Of course, how much certainty you require in your genealogy is entirely up to you!
Another source not available online is the "stato di famgilia" or "foglio di famiglia" which is a type of residency record, listing everyone living in a home, with birthdates and birthplaces. These would be conserved by the comune anagrafe office, and are not open to the public, so any study would be by the pure goodwill of the comune staff. These were created from 1870 on, though it's very rare for these records to survive before 1900. Nonetheless, if a record existed showing the correct Rosa Stumpo living with her son born in Cleto 1850 this would obviously resolve everything.
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I did search the Death Records using the family search records (same link as you provided) and there was no Rosa Stumpo death in the years 1883-1910. The only final thing I am going to do in Cleto is scan some Birth records in the years surrounded around the 1850 birth. Again I doubt I will find anything, but I know I will have exhausted everything I can search for in Cleto.
I will then accept the fact the same couple who married in Paterno in 1855 is the same couple. I'm going to make a new post regarding Giuseppe Stumpo. Having a problem with baptism extract.
As always I very much appreciate all your help- Carl
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I completed going through birth records in Cleto for the years 1840-1885 and once again did not find any additional children in Cleto. In fact once again not a single Borelli or Stump. So I am going to consider this complete and go with the couple who married in 1855 in Paterno Calabro.
I really appreciate you sticking with me on this one. Thanks for all your help-Carl
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@Harleynut97 It is my pleasure of course!
This makes sense then! As long as we have an explanation (and we do because clearly the 1855 couple cohabitated before marriage) and we do our utmost to try to disprove the assumption (which you did by searching thoroughly in Cleto), then this is perfectly valid. It's always unfortunate when we can't find ironclad, indisputable proof, but genealogy doesn't always happen by the book, and there are exceptions to every rule!
Looking at that other processetto you posted, it's clear this family moved around between many towns presumably for work, so to live temporarily in Cleto is not exceptional either.
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