Can Someone Help Me Determine The England and Wales Soures?
I need help determining the correct names of places in the sources attached to my ancestors mentioned here. Can anyone help?
The main ones are: Claines, Worcestershire, England or Wales; Monmouth, Monmouthshire, England or Wales; Monmouth, Gloucestershire, England or Wales.
My ancestor Harriett Ann Holloway (Family Search ID# MLZY-559) has sources in several different places in England and or Wales. When I Google and view these places the information confuses me because I know very little about them. Plus the original verses current place names keep effecting my research. Please see her for more details. Thanks.
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Hello Shelly,
Regarding your question on the geography....
Claines is a Village situated within the County of Worcestershire which is in the Country of England.
Monmouth is a Town situated within the County of Monmouthshire which is in the Country of Wales.
England and Wales are two of the four countries which make up the United Kingdom, the other two countries being Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The term "Monmouth, Gloucestershire" is an error and should not be used. The Welsh town of Monmouth is not situated in the English county of Gloucestershire.
As you had suggested I looked at the FamilySearch page for Harriett Holloway (MLZY-559). I can see where you have attached many records. Great work on your part.
Looking at several of the census records, I see that the transcribed census records incorrectly show Monmouth to be in England, among several other similar transcription errors.
Unfortunately, these transcription errors are seen relatively often in transcribed UK records. My speculation is that the transcribers (potentially American) are confused between the term "United Kingdom" and the term "England", at times assuming that they mean the same thing. Thus, towns in the United Kingdom are sometimes transcribed incorrectly as being in "England".
Hope this helps.
John.
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I really like your answer John! It is exactly what I would have advised too.
Hello Shelly,
Don't forget that FamilySearch has a wonderful Wiki, where you may be able to research the geographical locations of your ancestors. Try these links:
Well done on all the names and details you have added - splendid achievement! I wish you well in your further research and hope this answer helps in that.
Jill 2021
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Just to confuse matters, there was a Monmouth Registration District from 1837 to 1939. This included areas within the English counties of Gloucestershire and Herefordshire. Quite rightly, the FamilySearch database includes "Monmouth, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom" Registration District - although (inconsistently) not "Monmouth, Herefordshire, England, United Kingdom". However, it includes a wrong time period where this placename might be considered correct: "1837 - Present" instead of "1837-1939".
Monmouthshire as a county existed as an "English" administrative district over the centuries, although always geographically part of Wales.
In short, always use "Monmouth, Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom" for events that took place in the town and only "Monmouth, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom" when referring to civil events that took place in the Gloucestershire part of the registration district of Monmouth.
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There seems little wrong with how you have the placenames at present. If you know she died at Claines (which I see from a map is very close to the city of Worcester) you can show her death in the same way it appears on her page for the 1861 census detail. I cannot find an exact birthplace for her, but as she was baptised at Worcester, you could leave the birthplace as it is, or find the actual place of residence from her baptism entry and enter that in front of the county. The same applies to the marriage place, which took place in Worcester Registration District, but the sources attached to her do not specify the exact parish.
In summary, it would be fine to leave the placenames as they are, but add the village / parish names in front of the county name if you can positively identify them.
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To add to John's reply, FamilySearch gets its census transcripts from FindMyPast. If you find errors and you have access to FindMyPast, you can report the transcript errors there.
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Hello Paul,
Very good input. That adds an insight into where the "Monmouth... England" designation would have come from.
However, I would wish to push back on you. It feels inappropriate that a registration district should override the national designation. Thus documenting Monmouth as a town in England feels very incorrect. Monmouth has always been a town in Wales.
In a similar guise, if births in the US city of Seattle had for a time in past centuries been administered by a registration district based in Vancouver in Canada, I cannot see it being appropriate that we would document a birth as being in Seattle, Canada, simply because the registration for Seattle happened to be administered from an office situated in the neighboring country. The birth would seem to be most appropriately placed in Seattle, USA.
I would value your thoughts.
John.
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I agree. If you know that the birth took place in Seattle, USA, it should be recorded as such. A difficulty might arise if the area administered by Vancouver covers other parts of the US outside Seattle and you know that to be the case without knowing precisely where in the USA. In that case, following the Monmouth example, you might record it as Vancouver Administrative District (or whatever it was called), USA
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I have been examining the options available when wishing to enter Monmouth as a place in England. As per my screenshot, the drop down that appears when we are adding a placename only has such an option in relation to the registration district. Of course, users are free to make this choice for events that took place in the town of Monmouth, but this would be wrong. The only suggested alternatives for events that took place in the "Populated Place", "Parish" or "Poor Law Union" of Monmouth all have "Wales" in the title. So, unless you "break the rules" in making an appropriate choice from the list, "England" should never be included in the title.
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Now I'm just so overwhelmed! These are excellent answers! I really appreciate all this help! Would anyone like to make an educated guess how my ancestor Harriett Ann Holloway's (Family Search ID# MLZY-559) Places should be entered?
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Fantastic! Thanks everyone for all your very specific help!
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Hello Shelly,
Regarding your question on the geography of events for Harriett Ann Holloway (Family Search ID# MLZY-559).
If the event took place in CLAINES, a Village in the County of Worcestershire in England. Then you should use...
Claines, Worcestershire, England, United Kingdom
If the event took place in MONMOUTH, a Town in the County of Monmouthshire in Wales. Then you should use ...
Monmouth, Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom.
Hope this helps, John.
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