Hanß Petter Scholl Sep 12 1652 father Hanß Petter Scholl, m Margretha film 004137289 page 204
Translation request. This is one of the first entries for Graben, Baden, Germany. I have made some adjustments in Photoshop to help read the words in the shadow. I have also tried to read some of the names as seen in the question above. One of the witnesses could be Elisabeth Zimmerman.
Any and all help is appreciated on this early Graben document. KG
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Good morning Kent,
There appears to be four baptismal sponsors which I have shown below on four separate lines in case another volunteer can help out with this difficult record:
Translation:
Parents are recorded in the left margin: Hanß Petter Scholl and Margretha.
I have M. Mathaeiaß Meÿermaister, pastor of "Speck" [Spöck] and "Staffert" [Staffort], baptized a child, his name Hanß Petter. Baptismal sponsors:
Petter Keller?, son of Martin Keller?;
Hanß _______ "des Zimmermanns Sohn";
_______ Margretha _________ daughter;
and Dorothea ________ "Zimmermanns Dochter [Tochter]".
on the 12th of September [1652].
FYI: "Zimmermann" can be both a surname and an occupation = carpenter.
Comment: I don't know what the "M." stands for before the pastor's name but it appears in all of the records on this page.
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Disclaimer, this was in my draft box, which I didn't even know I had! Ha, but I decided to share it anyway, because I remember this document, and do feel that suggestion following would make a difference in how the document is transcribed.
Kent, would you mind changing the image to a different color? Try, light browns, soft yellows, and even orange. I made a screen shot of it, and fiddled with it as well. I think we can pull more from it, when we get the shadows cleared.
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Hello @Kent Gardiner,
Follow-up on the "M.":
In a recent response on another of your questions, @Ulrich Neitzel interpreted the "M." before a pastor's name as the word "Magister". So it's possible the "M." in this record means the same.
Thode, German-English Genealogical Dictionary, defines "Magister" as: master; teacher. In addition I found one online source that said "Magister" is a form of address appropriate for a doctor of theology.
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Hello @Kent Gardiner , Hello @Robert Seal_1
To add on Robert's remark:
"Magister" = M. in this context means the lower university degree (corresponding to today's Master of...). For illustration see the list below: two people (both clergyman) have the title Magister, one (a physician) has the title Doctor (Dr.). Note also that the (Latin) titles are set with Latin typeface in contrast to the normal Fraktur.
By the way, the abbreviation for a doctor of theology in old documents is usually D., not Dr.
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Ulrich Neitzel This is very interesting for several reasons:
We have a Hans Andreas Endris Scholl 1639-1691. I have only seen the name Endris in a few other Graben documents. Dorothea deß Endris is a new person in the 1600s in Graben. (I don't know what deß means)
We have Reinhard Rinninger birth 8 Apr 1666 birth Graben. In this case Reinhard is a given name not a surname.
The reason I'm asking for some of these early records to be translated is because I want to compare the sponsors to see if there is a pattern. I think you are right to suggest doing so. Thanks for this translation. It has been a lot of work which I truly appreciate. Kent
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I am blown away that you can get all this. Way to go, Robert!
The name is in FS but no documents are attached.
In my records it shows the Graben Pfarrer as: 1650-1652 M. Jonas Anwander. But according to the record the pastor was from Spöck which is nearby. In fact sometimes the Spöck Pfarrer comes to Graben to take over when a Pfarrer is unavailable.
Good to know it is a baptismal record.
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Excellent information about the word "Magister" and the abbreviation "D" for Doctor of Theology. Thank you, @Ulrich Neitzel.
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Hi, I found a better copy of this document and replaced the first copy at the top of the post. Maybe you can squeeze a few more words out of this entry. Thanks, Kent
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Ulrich Neitzel You may need to upload it again. All I see is a hourglass.
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Ulrich Neitzel, Wow, that looks great!
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Hello @Kent Gardiner & @Robert Seal_1
it remains difficult to squeeze out more. Here my transcription (additions to Robert' translation in bold):
habe ich M. Mathaeiaß Meyermaister Pfr. von Speck u: Staffert ein Kind getaufft [sein] namm Hanß Petter. Comp. Petter Keller, Martin Kellers Sohn, Hanßreinharth ___ . deß Zimmermans Sohn, und? Margaretha h__ Heyllers Dochter und? Dorothea deß Endris?_ Zimmermans Dochter. d 12 September
Also other children of Hans Petter Scholl have a sponsor with the name Hans Reinhard; unclear to me if this can be the same person.
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Ulrich Neitzel You are right about Hans Reinhard:
1. Hans Peter Scholl bap on the 12 of September 1652, parents Hanß Petter Scholl and Margretha, baptismal sponsors: Hanß Reinhard, Zimmermanns verified
2.Anna Dorothea Scholl 10 August 1657-24 April 1661, Parent Peter Scholl, mother Anna Margaretha, baptismal sponsor: Hanß Reinhard Mezger, verified
3. Anna Barbara Scholl September 1659-10 Oct 1859, Parent Peter Scholl, sponsors: Hanß Reinhard Mezger, Zimmermann verified
4. Hans Mattias Scholl 1660- 16 Apr 1667, 7 yrs old, Parent Peter Scholl yet to be translated
5. Anna Maria Scholl 24 Oct 1660, Parent Peter Scholl, Margaretha, baptismal sponsor Hanß Reinhard Mezger, verified
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