Does this record list the mother's parents?
Thanks.
Risposte
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By "mother" do you mean the woman named "Rosina Barbara" recorded on the right in the space marked "Frau"?
Here is what is written in that column:
"des Joh[ann] Martin Schultheiß, Herrschaftl[ich] Hof Küchenknechts jüngste ehel[ich] led[ige] Tochter Rosina Barbara"
which translates as:
Rosina Barbara, the youngest, legitimate unmarried daughter of Johann Martin Schultheiß, noble estate [or manorial court] kitchen servant.
Then, Rosina Barbara's father is identified again in the right column two sections down in the section entitled "Eltern" [Parents]: Johann Martin Schultheiß.
Her mother is not identified on this family group sheet. The couple's two sons appear on the next page (image 702).
Above the names of the "Mann" and "Frau" written in Latin is: "(p. matr. subs. leg.) = per matrimonium subsequens legitimatus = legitimized by subsequent marriage, and is referring to the couple's two sons on image 702.
I assume you know that the second son on image 702 is the sculptor Joseph Ernst Bandel, born on 17 May 1800 in Ansbach.
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Here is the link to an additional family group sheet for this same "Mann" and "Frau" found in the same database ("Ansbach, Germany, Lutheran Parish Records Extracts, 1526-1940") on Ancestry:
Note that this family group sheet is on image 724, whereas the family group sheet you previously posted was on image 701. These are both on the same digitzed microfilm.
Why did the person making the extracts not catch that these were the same couple?
On image 701, the "Mann" (Husband) was identified as: Carl Friedrich Bandel.
On image 724, the "Mann" was identified as: Gg. [=Georg] Friedrich Karl Bandel.
The family group sheets in this collection are first arranged alphabetically by the husband's surname, and then second alphabetically by the husband's forename(s).
The two images are separated by about 23 images because on the first sheet, the husband is "Carl" and on the second sheet, the husband is "Georg".
Even though the first names of the husband don't match perfectly on the two sheets, this is why I believe this is the same couple on both sheets:
(1) both records are from Ansbach.
(2) The occupation of the husband is the same on both records: Regierungs-Direktor (=chief administrator).
(3) The mother is the same on both records: Rosina Barbara Schultheiß.
(4) The mother's father on both records is Johann Martin Schultheiß, and he has the same occupation: kitchen servant on a noble estate.
(5) The three sons for this couple are all born in the same time frame: the two sons on image 702 are born March 1798 and May 1800; the son on image 725 is born in June 1801.
The family group sheet on image 724 gives you additional information about this couple:
At the top of this page, you see the name of the specific parish where this record came from: Ansbach St. Johannis.
The date above the husband and wife is their marriage date: 3 January 1802. It is this marriage which legitimizes all three sons who were born before 1802.
Note that here the mother's father, Johann Martin Schultheiß is identified as deceased, indicating he died before the marriage took place in January 1802. His occupation is recorded as: "Herrschaftl[ich] Küchendiener" = noble/lordly kitchen servant.
Finally, Rosina Barbara Schultheiß's mother, the wife of Johann Martin Schultheiß, is identified in this record as:
"Joh. S.? Elisab. Wenger" which stands for:
Johanna S.? Elisabeth Wenger.
The son on image 725 is named: Friedrich Heinrich Bandel, and he was born on 17 June 1801.
Research note: This collection entitled "Ansbach, Germany, Lutheran Parish Records Extracts, 1526-1940" on Ancestry is known generally as the "Brenner Collection", and on FamilySearch, this database is entitled "Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia, Brenner Collection of Genealogical Records". It's important to understand that these family group sheets were extracted from the original parish records from 97 parishes in Ansbach, Mittlefranken, Bavaria, Germany.
Here is the link about this collection from the FamilySearch Rsearch Wiki:
Be sure to read the first section entitled: "What is in This Collection?"
Finally, keeping in mind that these are extracts from the original parish records, I checked and determined that the original parish records for Ansbach-St. Johannis have been digitized and are available on Archion should you prefer to look at the original records.
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Re: the Brenner Collection
The abstractors/extractors who prepared the family group sheets extensively used abbreviations for the forenames of people.
In the introductory material to this collection on the first microfilm (FHL DGS no. 4813245), there is a list of the abbreviations and the names they represent for both male forenames and female forenames.
Here is the link to the abbreviation lists:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGB8-217?i=11&cat=346818
This is image 12. Male abbreviations are on images 12 and 13; female abbreviations on images 14 and 15.
I thought this might be useful to you if you are working in the abstracted records of the Brenner Collection.
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Thanks, Robert, this is very interesting. I had found a couple of these documents for my family on Ancestry, but didn't know all the background information about the collection. Ancestry.com apparently has the rights to permit downloading the images, but FamilySearch does not. Maybe I'll poke around for other ancestors in this collection.
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Keep in mind when searching these Brenner Collection records on Ancestry the indexing is terrible.
Let's say you are searching for someone with the first name Johann. I have discovered that if you don't have any success with the name spelled out in full, then search again using the abbreviated form of the forename from the list of abbreviations; in this case "Joh". The Ancestry indexers basically indexed what they read as written and frequently guessed at the letters. You have to be creative when searching.
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I found this family in the Brenner collection and am thinking it may be the Johann Martin Schultheiss mentioned above:
Would you agree?
Thanks.
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Yes, I would agree.
On the line marked "Beruf" under his name, his occupation is listed as:
"Markgr. Küchenbedientr." = Markgräflich Küchenbedienter = kitchen servant of the marquis. This matches well with what we read as his occupation in the other records.
He died on 10 Oct 1813 at the age of 72 year, 4 month, 4 days.
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Some follow up questions:
Does this record list his parents?
This record gives his wife as A. Elisabeth Wengemann, and that they married in 1773. Could this be Rosina's mother?
The record shows children born in 1814, which would be 41 years after the couple married. Assuming the wife married at about age , she would be about in her early 60s and having children.
Thank you for your help.
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Johann Martin Schultheiß and Anna Elisabeth Wagemann marry on 17 May 1773 in Ansbach.
Two sections below Johann Martin's name on the left in the section labeled "Eltern", his father is identified as:
the deceased Wilh[elm] Fried[rich], Bettelvogt, from Ansbach.
Note that Brenner extractors frequently did not repeat the father's surname on the "Vater" line if it was the same as the child's surname above. In this case Wilhelm Friedrich's surname is understood to be "Schultheiß".
The + sign before the father's name indicates that he is deceased. The word after his name, "Bettelvogt" is his occupation. Thode translates this as "beadle" which Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed., 2003) defines as: "a minor parish official whose duties include ushering and preserving order at services and sometimes civil functions." The online site Wörterbuchnetz has a number of definitions for "Bettelvogt" Here is just one (translated):
Bettelvogt: "alley guard, poor steward, poor guard, lower official, who was formerly employed by the authorities to prevent begging, especially by arresting the begging."
Anna Elisabeth Wagemann's father is identified two sections below her name on the right as: the deceased Andr[eas] Markus [Wagemann], Brauknecht, from Feuchtwangen (which is about 15 miles from Ansbach). His occupation "Brauknecht" is a brewer's helper or brewery worker.
For the two daughters on the next image, those aren't birth dates, they are marriage dates. Note the following symbols in the middle column:
*[asterisk] = birth
+ = death
oo = marriage
The first daughter, Sofia Magdalena, married on 13 Oct 1801 a man named Friedrich Christian Schneider.
The second daughter, Susanna, married in March 1814 a man named Christian Kraus.
As to your question: "Could this be Rosina's mother?"
Maybe. Yesterday we found a record that identified Rosina Barbara Schulheiß's mother as:
Johanna S.? Elisabeth Wenger.
Today in this record the wife of Johann Martin Schultheiß is identified as:
Anna Elisabeth Wagemann.
You'll need to do more research to determine if Johanna S.? Elisabeth Wenger and Anna Elisabeth Wagemann are the same person, or are they first and second wives of Johann Martin Schultheiß?
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Some additional info I know: Rosina Barbara Schultheiss was born in about 1782 (from her Brenner record with her 2nd husband). She had her first child at age 16 and married at age 20 to her 1st husband.
This raises the question: Were these indeed her parents?
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Bear in mind that Johann Martin Schultheiß died in 1813 at the age of 72; this results in a calculated birth year of 1741.
If Rosina Barbara Schultheiß was born in 1782, and this is her father, he would have been about 41 when she was born.
If Anna Elisabeth Wagemann was the same age as her husband or a bit younger, she would have been around 40 or a little older when Rosina Barbara Schultheiß was born in 1782.
So Rosina Barbara's birth year of 1782, which was only 9 years after Johann Martin Schultheiß and Anna Elisabeth Wagemann married in 1773, as well as the parents' presumed ages at the time of Rosina Barbara' birth, would not preclude them from being her parents.
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No, they certainly don't. I wouldn't be surprised if Anne Elisabeth Wagemann was 5, 10, or even more years younger than her husband. It seems like that was not uncommon, especially among richer people. I also know that this couple did have a daughter in 1779, so it would make some sense that this is Rosina's family.
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Cody -- here is one more piece to the saga of Rosina Barbara Schultheiß.
The following article about the sculptor Ernst Joseph von Bandel comes from the Neu deutsche Biographie, volume 1 (which was published in 1953):
https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/ppn118506390.html
Note that the first paragraph entitled "Genealogie" includes information about Ernst's parents and paternal grandparents.
Ernst's father ("V") is identified as: Georg Carl Friedrich von Bandel, government director in Ansbach.
Ernst's paternal grandfather ("Gvv") is identified as: Balthasar Bandel, court and government councilor in Szczecin [now in Poland, formerly a city in Germany under the name: Stettin].
Ernst's paternal grandmother ("Gmv") is identified as: Luise Dorothee Henriette Ruel.
Ernst's mother ("M") is identified as: Johanna Rosina Barbara Schultheiß, from Ansbach. This is the same person as the Rosina Barbara Schultheiß we've seen in the Brenner Collection records, but now she has the first name "Johanna". Unfortunately, this article does not provide any information about Johanna Rosina Barbara Schultheiß's parents.
The final entry in the "Genealogie" section is Ernst's marriage in 1828 to Caroline von Kohlhagen; the couple had seven children, including the sculptor Heinrich von Bandel (1829-1864).
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That is very interesting, I didn't know about that biography. Ernst is my 5th great-grandfather, through his son Arnulf (Gottfrid Arnulf).
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I do have a question relating to Ernst. His father was about 35 years older than his wife. I am wondering if this may have been Ernst's father, Georg Karl von Bandel's (L1ZD-1Y9) second marriage. Where could I find that information? He was 54 when he was married to Rosina Schultheiss, who was 20. (He was 50 and she was 16 when their first child was born).
What do you think?
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