Ottenbach ZH - marriage - 1747 - Sidler & Schneebeli - Hans Kaspar & Elsbeth

Kent Gardiner

Second document:

https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2019/12/elsbeth-schneebeli-1710-1765.html

WSeelentag

ANNUS MDCCXLVII (1747)

Eodem [22. August]

Seckelmeister H. Caspar Sÿdler von Ottenbach

Elsbeth Schneebli von Affolteren

See also https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/detail.aspx?ID=4406544

WSeelentag

I am getting confused 🤔: there is the Hans Kaspar (1705-1768) and another Hans Kaspar (1705-1782) … what I find on https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/KH36-Z6J contradicts what I find on your page: where does the "other" Hans Kapsar (+1782) really fit in?

Kent Gardiner

https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag My Hans Kaspar is here:

https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2019/12/hans-kaspar-sidler-1705-1768.html

The other Hans Kaspar Sidler is a descendant of Ludwig Sidler: ( I put the pedigree on his page to help to show where Hans Kaspar fits in) I have not gone beyond Ludwig on this line because it isn't a direct line of mine.

https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2020/01/ludwig-sidler-1610-1688.html

Great to have you back!!!! KG

WSeelentag

I am attaching your screenshot with the (derived) numbers from Geneal-Forum – which I had based mainly on familysearch:

Unless I have misinterpreted something, this seems to be completely wrong – please, check this carefully. Could you, please, confirm the direct line for

1) Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) oo 1842 Anna Lisabetha Jenta (1816-1881)

2) Jakob Sidler (1780-1866) oo 1805 Anna Barbara Häberling (1779-1837)

4) Hans Sidler (1736-1804) oo 1760 Anna Sidler (1738-1798) ????

8) Hans Kaspar Sidler (1705-1768) K2HM-RSF oo Veronica Schneebeli (have a daughter Barbara 1736)

16) Jacob Sidler (1665-1741) L4J7-QHG oo Verena Haberling

32) Hans Rudolf Sidler (1635-1710) LZF7-ZLP oo Margaretha Gross

64) Jakob Sidler (1608-1693) LH7N-ZKF oo Veronika Urmi

128) Johannes Sidler (1583-?) LH7N-C7Z oo Katharina Kleiner

Kent Gardiner

WSeelentag  On the top left of each page on Gatheringgardiners.com are the main family lines for me. Click to see the home page for each family line. Here is the one for the Sidler family. I assume you have seen this but if not it will be very helpful. I don't fully understand your numbering system. Maybe you can label a few on my line to help me fully understand your numbering system. Many families come from Johannes Sidler abt 1547 -1611 FSID: KHVS-7R1

My question is this: Do all Sidlers in Ottenbach come from Johannes Sidler 1547? I believe in Graben Germany that all Scholl's come from Joss Scholl b 1610.

https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2019/12/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-ja-x.html

WSeelentag

As mentioned a couple of times before: the numbering system is that by Kekule. This description is in German - there is an English version - but the graphic in the German version is clearer and (I feel) self-explaining.

For my list (above) you don't even have to understand the system - it's just the direct (paternal) line: Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) … his father … grandfather …

I assumed Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) to be your direct ancestor: correct? Could you, please, also check his ancestors' list above. This needs to be corrected on Geneal-Forum - which will be time consuming - so I'm not going to start before I know the corrct connections for sure.

Kent Gardiner

Emma Josephine Bachman is my grandmother.

Kent Gardiner

Johannes Sidler b 1877-1834 is my direct line. I will get back to you on your question.

WSeelentag

Thank you - so Johannes Sidler is NOT a direct descendant for you, but son-in-law of your ancestor Rudolf Jenta - correct? This would still make him a good candidate as starting person of an ancestors' list.

What you haven't answered, however: Could you, please, confirm the direct line for

1) Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) oo 1842 Anna Lisabetha Jenta (1816-1881)

2) Jakob Sidler (1780-1866) oo 1805 Anna Barbara Häberling (1779-1837)

4) Hans Sidler (1736-1804) oo 1760 Anna Sidler (1738-1798) ????

8) Hans Kaspar Sidler (1705-1768) K2HM-RSF oo Veronica Schneebeli (have a daughter Barbara 1736)

16) Jacob Sidler (1665-1741) L4J7-QHG oo Verena Haberling

32) Hans Rudolf Sidler (1635-1710) LZF7-ZLP oo Margaretha Gross

64) Jakob Sidler (1608-1693) LH7N-ZKF oo Veronika Urmi

128) Johannes Sidler (1583-?) LH7N-C7Z oo Katharina Kleiner

Kent Gardiner

https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag

I am not sure why we start with Johannes b 1809. This would be much easier for me if we started with Johannes Sidler b 1777 because that is my first Sidler. In any case this is what I found:

Yes, Johannes Sidler b 1809 is Rudolf Jenta's b 1771, son-in-law.

1) Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) oo 1842 Anna Lisabetha Jenta (1816-1881) Yes

2) Jakob Sidler (1780-1866) oo 1805 Anna Barbara Häberling (1779-1837) Yes

4) Hans Sidler (1736-1804) oo 1760 Anna Sidler (1738-1798) ???? Yes

8) Hans Kaspar Sidler (1705-1768) K2HM-RSF oo Veronica Schneebeli (have a daughter Barbara 1736) No

*Hans Kaspar 1705 KH36-Z6J and Margaretha Sidler 1707-1784 K87N-5ML

16) Jacob Sidler (1665-1741) L4J7-QHG oo Verena Haberling No

*Hans Jakob Sidler 1678-1749 KH36-Z6 and Margaretha Hegetschweiler 1679-1746 KT3B-3NC

32) Hans Rudolf Sidler (1635-1710) LZF7-ZLP oo Margaretha Gross No

*Hans Jakob Sidler 1650-1730 MC3R-W64 Barbara Sidler 1654-1688 K63M-FW6

64) Jakob Sidler (1608-1693) LH7N-ZKF oo Veronika Urmi No

*Hans Jagli Sidler 1615 dec 9ML7-LNV Barbara Sigrist 1614-1681 9ML7-LNV

128) Johannes Sidler (1583-?) LH7N-C7Z oo Katharina Kleiner No

*Heinrich Sidler 1572-1623 KT3B-QSF Margaretha Berger 1576 dec LH7N-HZ6

WSeelentag

“I am not sure why we start with Johannes b 1809.”

Remember - we started this cooperation with the Jenta family of Wetzikon: Anna Lisabetha Jenta (1816-1881) had married Johannes Sidler (1809-1873) - so he was the connection to Jenta and (at least for me) an obvious candidate to be the “proband” for Sidler info.

I had taken “my” list from your graph attached previously - do you see the discrepancy? The root of the problem are the two Hans Kaspar, both born 1705, one dying 1768, the other 1782, if one only looks only at the year of death as distinction - which seems to be incorrect in at least one data set. What have we got?

Hans Kaspar “Mar” Sidler, ≈ 29.03.1705, son of Jacob Sidler & Veronika Häberling

Hans Kaspar “Oct” Sidler, ≈ 25.10.1705, son of Hans Jacob Sidler & Margaretha Hegetschweiler

According to Billeter

Hans Kaspar “Mar” Sidler marries 1728 Veronica Schneebeli and 1747 Elsbeth Schneebeli, dies 23.02.1768 aged 62 years 10 months minus 6 days – which (almost) fits a birth in March 1705 (1 month off), wife not mentioned. On your website you write “Hans lived 62 years 10 months 24 days (online age calculator) . According to the this death record ...” - I don’t see that: there is no mention of him being a widower – and 62y 10m “weniger” 6d are 62y 9m 24d.

Hans Kaspar “Oct” Sidler marries 1735 Margaretha Sidler, dies 23.08.1782: have you got this death entry somewhere?

Unfortunately none of the marriage entries mentions the parents, and 1747 it is not mentioned that Hans Kaspar was a widower.

Conclusion: Billeter may be right - but so far I have not seen a proof which of the two married whom. However, if we assume Billeter to be correct, there seems to be an error in the database producing the above chart.

The good news for me (if Billeter is assumed correct) is that on Geneal-Forum no correction would be required 😉.

What I would love to see next is the baptismal entry 1736 of Hans Sidler, son of Hans Kaspar Sidler and Margaretha Sidler.

Kent Gardiner

WSeelentag

1736 Hans Caspar Sidler baptism 15 January Ottenbach page 339

Hans Caspar Sidler marriage to Margaretha Sidler: 25 January 1735

Kent Gardiner

1705 Hans Caspar Sidler baptism 28 Oct Ottenbach page 285

Kent Gardiner

1782 Caspar Sidler burial 77 years 23 August Ottenbach film 008126955 page 849 page

What is the word before Caspar in this death record? Is the word Ehegaumer? If so both Caspar Sidler's were Ehegaumers.

Kent Gardiner

WSeelentag

The parents. of the first generation of Sidler's in Ottenbach were Johannes Sidler b abt 1574 and Magdalena Stälin. b abt 1550

Out of that marriage came two family lines from two brothers:

1. Heinrich Sidler 1572-1623. Born in Heinrich's line is Caspar Sidler 1705-1782.

2. Johannes Sidler 1583-+1625 and out of that line came Caspar Sidler 1705-1768.

Also

The husband to Anna Lisabeth Jenta 1816-1881 was Johannes Sidler b 1709 who is the great grandson of Hans Kaspar Sidler b 1705.

WSeelentag

1782 Caspar Sidler burial

Correct: Ehgaumer (abbreviation Eh for Ehe is quite common)

WSeelentag

Baptism Hanß, den 15. [Jan] 1736 [not Hans Caspar]

Parents: Hanß Caspar vnd Margreth Sÿdler zu Otte(n)bach.

Witnesses: Hanß vnd Anna Sÿdler Ibid. (same location = Ottenbach).

WSeelentag

Marriage den 25. [dto. = Jan] 1735

Hanß Caspar v(nd) Margreth Sÿdler zu Ott(en)bach.

WSeelentag

Baptism 25.10.1715

[Sunday] Den 25. 8bris [Oct] 1705

K(ind): Hans Caspar

E(ltern): Jacob Sdler d(er) ..(?).. / Margreth Hegetschweiler

Z(eugen): Hanß Caspar Bär / Anna Schneblin

..(?)..: This could be a profession or a nickname – I am especially unsure about the first letter (a copy of the complete page for comparison might be helpful). Could be Träger (carrier) – but don’t take this for granted!!

I notice on the baptismal entry (29.03.1705) of the “other” Hans Caspar, son of Jacob Sÿdler and Froni Häberlig that after “Sÿdler” there is also one more word, again profession or nickname, which I unfortunately cannot interpret at all. Obviously there were two Jacob Sidler living in Ottenbach at the same time – so the pastor added something for identification. Unfortunately these don’t show up in the marriage and death records.

Checking baptismal records for other children of these two Jacobs might help (if the additional word shows up) to decipher this.

Kent Gardiner

1705 Jakob Sidler baptism 25 Oct. Ottenbach film 008014328 page 285

Kent Gardiner

1736 Hanss Sidler bap 15 Jan Father Hans Caspar Sidler Ottenbach page 339

Kent Gardiner

1737 Hans Bernhard Sidler bap 3 Feb Ottenbach page 340

Kent Gardiner

1739 Catharina Sidler bap 23 Jun Ottenbach page 345

WSeelentag

1705 Jakob Sidler baptism 25 Oct. Ottenbach film 008014328 page 285:

"Töchterli" on the right page confirms my first guess: Träger.

Note that in the first entry "Jagli Häberlig der jung Träger" is mentioned - though with a more complex "T".

Idiotikon mentions quite a few explanations other than "carrier":

Trager 14,566, Treger, Träger 

1. Träger(in), als Person

a) zunächst jmd, der etw. (einen Gegenstand, eine Last) trägt

b) im militärischen Bereich, «Panner-Tr.» (Bannerträger)

c) im Handelsbereich, 'einer, der unter eigener Verantwortlichkeit von einem oder mehreren Fabrikanten Stücke zur Verarbeitung übernimmt und solche durch von ihm selbst angestellte Arbeiterinnen machen läßt'

d) im Rechtsbereich, wer eine Verpflichtung trägt, bes. im Lehenswesen

-- α) Mittelsmann, Vertreter

----- 1) von Körperschaften

----- 2) von natürlichen Personen, oft i.S.v. Vormund

-- β) Pächter, Empfänger von Lehensgütern

-- γ) Hafter mehrerer Schuldner gegenüber dem Zins- und Zehntenherr, Zinseinzieher

-- δ) Unterhaltspflichtiger (für einen Weg, Zaun)

e) Ohrenbläser, Zuträger (von Gerüchten)

The most interesting one might be "Bannerträger" = standard-bearer.

In the other two records the distinctive expression is not mentioned.

Kent Gardiner

WSeelentag

Wonderful work!. Again you amaze me with your knowledge and detail.

Does the first entry translate to "Jakob Häberling, the young carrier"?

In the Jakob Sidler entry I assume the little curly, backwards E is part of the T in Träger, correct?

Thode says Träger means "Pallbearer or carrier."

Kent Gardiner

https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag

Sidler Lineage, a tale of two lines

The parents of the first generation of Sidler's we know of in Ottenbach were Johannes Sidler b abt 1574 and Magdalena Stälin. b abt 1550. They had 10 children. There is good documentation that three of their children married and had children. Verena Sidler b 1579-1628 married and had children but the Sidler line died with her because her husband was named Hans Mayer.

However two Sidler family lines came from two of Verena's brothers:

1. Heinrich Sidler 1572-1623 (second child). Five generations after Heinrich - Hans Kaspar Sidler was born 25 October 1705, in Ottenbach, Zürich.

2. Johannes Sidler 1583-+1625 (seventh child). This is the line represented on this website. Five generations after Johannes - Hans Kaspar Sidler, 29 March 1705 -1768 was born.

The two Sidler cousins were born 6 months 27 days apart. They lived in the same town, went to the same Kirche, ate the same food and both married and had children. Interestingly enough they were both Ehegaumers. The Kaspar Sidler represented on this site, who descended from Johannes, died 22 February 1768, while the Kaspar Sidler from Heinrich's line died 23 Oct 1782 or 14 years 9 months and 1 day apart.

From:

https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2024/10/hans-kaspar-sidler-1705-1782.html