why is 'Hans' repeated in this 1689 Alsace birth record?

Tom Randolph

I think I transcribed correctly this 1689 birth record for my ancestor, but it notes the paternal godparent's father as 'Hans Schuster, hanß dan Schuster das Gerichtsm.' Any explanation for the added 'hanß dan Schuster' phrase?

Transcription

:1689

:Locus: Oberhoff Ꙩ S. Trinit d. 5. Junÿ. St. N. pom. [pomerid?] i. natus ♃. d. 9 Junÿ A. [st?] n. renat 9, 1689

:Infans: Thieboldt

:Parentes: Thieboldt Heinrichs u Margreth, Eheleüte, und burger

:Propajr: Thieboldt bet ams vulgo Jöeng Thiebold, burger Hans Schuster, hanß dan Schuster das Gerichtsm. Ehel. Sohn.

:Pronajr: Jungfr Margaretha Michäel Müllers das färbers zu Bichw. Ehel. Tochter.

 Translation

:Year: 1689

:Location: Oberhoff [Oberhoffen] Ꙩ [symbol for Sunday] St. Trinity born the 5. June. [St. N.?] afternoon. [i.?] born ♃ [symbol for Jupiter: Thursday]. [the] 9 June [A. [or st?] n.?] baptized 9, 1689

:Infant: Thieboldt

:Parents: Thieboldt Heinrich and Margreth, married couple, and Citizen

:Paternal Sponsors: Thieboldt known commonly [as] Young Thiebold, Legitimate Son of the [??] of Shoemaker and Courtmember, Citizen Hans Schuster.

:Maternal Sponsors: Maiden Margaretha, Legitimate Daughter of Michäel Müller, dyer in Bichw. [Bischwiller]

Archives d’Alsace; Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin; Oberhoffen-sur-Moder - Paroisse protestante (Avant 1793) - Registre de baptêmes mariages sépultures 1671-1737 - 3 E 345/1; https://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944-2316148; Image 37 of 186; accessed 2 Sep 2023.

Ulrich Neitzel

@Tom Randolph

• There are two people named "Hans Schuster": Hans Schuster is the the legitimate son of Hanß Dan[iel?] Schuster, the jury man. "Schuster" is a name here, not an occupation.
• The first sponsor is a Thieboldt whose first name goes over two lines (I can't read it); he is known as "Jörg Thieboldt" and is the brother [of the father].
• What you interpret as "i" after "pom." is probably the number "1" (1 o'clock in the afternoon?)

Some other minor edits:

:Locus: Oberhoff Ꙩ S. Trinit d. 5. Junÿ. St. N. pom. [pomerid?] 1. natus ♃. d. 9 Junÿ A. [st?] n. renat 9, 1689

:Infans: Thieboldt

:Parentes: Thieboldt Heinrichs u Margreth, Eheleüte, und bürger

:Propatr: Thieboldt bet ams (this is probably one name over two lines) vulgo Jörg Thiebold, bruder; Hans Schuster, hanß dan: (possibly Daniel) Schusters des Gerichtsm. Ehel. Sohn.

:Promatr: Jungfr Margaretha Michäel Müllers das färbers zu Bichw. Ehel. Tochter.

Ulrich Neitzel

@Tom Randolph

Again: There are two sponsors mentioned:

1. Thiebold XXX (name unreadable), a Bürger, known as Jöng or Jörg Thiebold
2. Hans Schuster, the legitimate son of Hanß Dan[iel] Schuster the jury man.

The reason that for sponsor 2 the father is mentioned (in contrast to sponsor 1) is probably that this sponsor 2 is a young, unmarried man.

sylviaelchinger1

The first Hans Schuster is the son of the second Hans Schuster. This is indicated by the words "ehel[icher] Sohn" - legitimate son.

Tom Randolph

@sylviaelchinger1 : I was assuming that the 'ehel. Sohn' refers to Theiboldt as legitimate son of Hans Schuster, since no other father is given for Thieboldt. And why would it be 'hanß dan Schuster' with the 'dan'?

Tom Randolph

Hi @Ulrich Neitzel! It you look closely, though, what you see as 'bruder' can be read as 'burger' since there is a faint but clear loop below to make the 'g', so still referring to Thiebold. And the 'vurgo' (known generally as) only makes sense if what follows is his nickname 'Jong Thiebold', no? The family name could be 'Ad=ams', but 'bet ams' also works in this context, it seems.

Ulrich Neitzel

Hi Tom,

seems you are right with the "Bürger".

I missed that Thieboldt is in fact a first name for the father, the sponsor and the child. It is a very uncommon name (at least in Germany) and I took it as a family name. I still claim that the father's family name goes over two lines (Adams could well be, "bet ams" sounds very strange to me) and that the name after "vulgo" is most probably Jörg Thieboldt.

Tom Randolph

@Ulrich Neitzel; @sylviaelchinger1; I am getting more convinced that I have the first part correct since Thiebold (Diebold) is a common given name in this village and I have yet to come across Diebold as a surname (and I have done the records for over 200 people in this village), so the 'vulgo Jöng Thiebold' only makes sense as distinguishing him as the 'young Thiebold' rather than referring to someone called Georg Thiebold. So he is the son of Hans Schuster, but still leaves the second 'Hans dan Schuster' a mystery, unless it is just meant to specify that this is the Hans Schuster known more fully as Hans Daniel Schuster the juryman. That would be my guess since the Schuster family is quite large in this village. Thanks for the help!

Tom Randolph

@Ulrich Neitzel : OK, that also makes sense. Thanks!