The marriage record of Egidius de Wolf and Maria Raschaert is found on the bottom left of this page:
Risposte
-
Latin is patchwork for me,But i can read Petrus Vandergucht and Adrianus De Wolf.
Hope it helps
0 -
Vandergucht probably the official, as i can see him on the other marriages.
0 -
After 3 proclamations Egidius de Wolf and Maria Rasschaert entered into matrimony in the presence of the following witnesses Petro Vandergucht and Adriano de Wolf on 2 July 1724 which was attested by H Van Mulders, pastor.
Petro and Adriano are declined forms, dative or ablative. As Adrien pointed out in an earlier reply, Petrus and Adrianus would be the nominative forms.
0 -
On your induction, Fritz, i went back to the page,to compare the "O"s and browsed to the next page,to find more evidence, and very strange, another pastor used the same linguistic modus operandi.Very obvious, right corner above is clear example for the names having the -o- as exit, not the us.I took the liberty to browse to the old church books of Erpe,and the indexes,finding every index i checked and every time-frame observed makes use of de nominaatsvorm,-Hendrikus, Adrianus,Petrus.
After that i grabbed some Vandergucht's from the indexes to be found in the early 1700 to 1800 (the age/brackett of the witness) to see that they are all in de nominate form.
A quick example.
Vandergucht and Van Der Gucht
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS17-PSDF-L?i=204&cat=343985
So i find it puzzling that the two pastors used the 0 form...?
-in the flemish language we do not know the term ablative in the sense it is used in Latin, but we do in the sense of technical terminology, like say
radiative ablation,ablation by infrared...i know the term and its use from turkish, as my wife is turkish, and they use ablations.But this as an aside.
Adrie
0 -
Adrie,
at first thought, we might be bothered that the nominative is not used. We want something like this 'the godparents were...' where we have a predicate nominative. However, the construction in this document is not that. It's something like this 'and was witnessed by ....' in which case we cannot have the nominative. It should be ablative, although could be dative.
Interestingly, as languages lose their cases (and I am speaking only of the language branches that I am most familiar with, i.e. Germanic and Romance), the ablative merges with the dative, then when the dative disappears, it merges with the accusative. English has nothing left of this, except in pronouns and we use the dative ones, me, him, them (although, surprisingly, the accusative form was found in many southern English counties as late as 1900!). Dutch/Flemish is more or less the same story. The dative is found only in a few isolated phrases (Norwegian is the same "zu Hause" is 'hjemme'. The -e is a relic of the old dative.
English also has one relic of the old instrumental case, which was dying out even in Old English (ca 600-1100). "the more the merrier" is instrumental, cf German 'je...'desto...' although it is not the same in either German or Dutch. "The degree to which something is more, to that same degree it is merrier." The instrumental merged with the dative.
0 -
Fritz, i did some research on wiki, about the ablative form , accusative, and dative
and also read the explanations in Dutch,so i have a clear picture now.
I will chew on this for some time, and do additional research to fill in the voids.
Strangely enough, in my dialect,which is a patois covering the elderly people
of one little town,we do have some ablative formulations,but they are diffusing
away.Even more difficult to explain than the Latin-ablative form.
I will search for a good example tomorrow.
It does exist in Flanders and Holland, but we call them basically stonified
expressions.(versteende uitdrukkingen), like say "in den vreemde" of "des vaderland's". I'm going to work on this for some time.
It also depends on how the corona crisis develops here.
Adrie
0 -
Yes, these are good example of frozen phrases that exemplify remnants of dead cases.
"in den vreemde" of "des vaderland's". The first one is probably origianlly dative, but may be after dative and accusative merged. The second one surely genitive.
0 -
Frozen phrase is a term to store, it goes in the toolbox.
0
