"Conversus" notation on record
Hello everyone,
I found the record for someone I was researching yesterday at a FHC and I wonder if anyone can help clarify what the notation "conversus" can signify in this context, and maybe where I could go to continue researching this family. Unfortunately, I do not have a link to the record, that was found on film DGS 8126366 item 2-3, the baptism record of Elisabeth, born 30 April 1800 to Augustinus Guttman and Anna Maria Frey. This record is from a Roman Catholic parish, so I assume they were born in another faith. My questions:
1) Would conversus apply to both parents, or could this be only one of them?
2) Was this term, in that time, used for a specific group converting to Roman Catholicism?
Another interesting note is that on the baptism of another child by the same parents, in another commune, there is a notation "vags." after their names, which I suppose stands for vagrant or vagabond, so this couple were likely part of a Fahrende, or travelling people group.
Any and all help is much appreciated, I am really not sure where else to search for them.
-- Suzana Stucka
Risposte
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"conversus" can have two meanings - either lay brother or someone converted (if in a catholic church record) from reformed to catholic. The place name just above "Lausanen" probabely means Lausanne - so the second explanation makes sense. I would say this is a general statement, not related to a specific group of people.
To whom does it apply? Parents were Guttmann and Frey. Guttmann (modern spelling) is not an established Swiss name - but Gutmann have been citizens since before 1800 mostly in reformed regions - would fit. Frey/Frei is too common to draw any conclusions.
You mention "vags." in another baptismal entry. Have you got a screenshot? To be correct Latin it should read "vagus" and "vaga" respectively, or "vagi" if both are meant. Apart from such detail, it means they were "heimatlos" (didn't hold citizenship anywere), were "Fahrende" (gypsies) ... which unfortunately makes research quite difficult.
On https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=28881 [Heimatlose im Kanton Solothurn] or https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=28881 [Römer (Heimatlose) im Kanton Solothurn] you might find some ideas how to continue.
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I do not know what's happening with my replies, they disappear. I sent a screenshot of the baptism record where the notation "vags", or now that you mentioned it, "vagi" which seems to be the case, appears. I don't know if my post is getting blocked because there is a picture attached, I will try again. If by any chance you can see my two previous replies, I am sorry. I can't see them, they do not appear for me. The baptism in question is Maria Anna's. This family had Heimatlos status, I found that on the 1818 Canton Fribourg census. The mother was listed as born in a commune I could not identify in Canton Luzern, the three daughters that had the mother's last name were each born in a different town. The father was dead by then. Thank you so much for your kind help.
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I have received several emails, indicating that you had submitted (or tried to submit) a post on the topic. Familysearch seems to have had a server problem - with one day delay I can see this post.
Yes - I read "vagi", i.e. both were Fahrende.
Fribourg 1818 census records are available from home: if you give the link to the exact page with the Luzern place name, I'll have a look.
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I am sorry for the repeated posts. I was not sure what is happening, I thought maybe I was doing something wrong.
This family can be found here number 1 below number 50:
Link to image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99HN-39GD?i=514&cc=2142770
If it is not much to ask, there is another family in the previous page that interests me. For context, the Frey women emigrated to Brazil in 1819. Katharina Frey, the youngest child here, is my fifth great-grandmother. She eventually married Hans Wagner, who also emigrated, seen here in entry number 3:
Link to image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89HN-39RY?i=513&cc=2142770
I also have trouble finding out what commune he was born in and if you know I would be very grateful. Thank you for your kindness in helping me.
-- Suzana
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Sorry for the slower than usual response: I can't really read those place names either and wanted to ask others for help. To do this I first had to summarize what we know so far in a consistent manner - you'll find this on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31369.
I recommend you register with the forum (free of charge and without any obligation) - this would give you two possibilities to be notified automatically each time a response is posted:
1) You can just "subscribe" to the topic - or eben better
2) post some information about what happened to the family after emigration.
Two organisational points:
1) In the forum we discuss all families (defined by surname and place of citizenship) in separate topics - but then all on this family in this topic. If related (e.g. by marriage) the two topics can be linked to each other. Consequence: for a detailed discussion on Hans Wagner and his family a new topic should be started.
2) We usually don't publish data on people born less than 100 years ago.
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Sie brauchen sich nicht dafür zu entschuldigen, dass Ihre Antwort länger gedauert hat, ich weiß es zu schätzen, dass Sie sich die Zeit genommen haben, einen Beitrag im Geneall-Tree-Forum zu schreiben. Ich habe mich dort angemeldet und werde für Hans Wagner und seine Familie einen eigenen Beitrag hinzufügen. Ich wusste nicht, dass es dieses Forum gibt und dass es so viele nützliche Informationen liefert. Ich werde weitere Informationen über jede der Frey-Frauen ab ihrer Ankunft in Brasilien veröffentlichen. Mit Bedauern muss ich feststellen, dass der Kanton, in dem Kattry Frey geboren wurde, keine Aufzeichnungen online hat und eine Genehmigung der örtlichen kirchlichen Behörde benötigt, damit diese im Staatsarchiv eingesehen werden können, was für Forscher, die auf einem anderen Kontinent leben, so unpraktisch ist . Nochmals vielen Dank und ich werde in Kürze auf Geneall-Tree posten. Ich hoffe, jemand kann den Geburtsort von Anna Maria Frey entziffern, sowie den von Hans Wagner.
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Gesucht wird eine Geburt/Taufe um 1810, also in der Pfarregistern, nicht den Zivilstandsregistern (ab 1876). Diese Pfarregister sind leider nicht online zugänglich und können im Staatsarchiv eingesehen werden. Dafür, dass eine Genehmigung des jeweiligen Pfarrers notwendig ist, gibt es meines Wissens keine allgemeine Rechtsgrundlage: das muss eine spezielle Vereinbarung zwischen Bistum und Staatsarchiv sein. Man kann ja noch einmal nachfragen ;-). Ich glaube kaum, dass ein Pfarrer für eine Suche um 1810 seine Genehmigung verweigert - das grössere Problem dürfte sein, dass man immer noch in das Staatsarchiv gehen muss.
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