Translation Request - Marriage Record of Thomas Lobel and Elisabeth
Hello, please translate the marriage record of Thomas Lobel and Elisabeth as shown in the pic below. I'm having difficulty with several text, including:
1.) Thomas is from Untterberg. Does unterberg mean lower mountain or perhaps lower village; i.e., Lower Konigswald?
2.) I'm unable to read info about Christoph, Elisabeth's father. Can you recognize his last name and occupation?
The marriage record is from the village of Konigswald, Tetschen, Bohemia, Austria (present-day Libouchec, Czechia) in 1728.
Thank-you!
Commentaires
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There's another marriage record for Tohmas from 14 June 1727 that says he's from Tyssa - https://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=09ddd7cea03b9b8d:4e496e4e:12216bae987:-7063&scan=91b89fd0c7dc4805a14e85701527f0ec
This 1727 marriage record translates as follows -
On the 14th [of June 1727], the honorable widower Tohmas Löbl, judge from Tyssa, married Anna, the surviving, legitimate daughter of the deceased Anders Manns, Fußzecher in Königswald, in the presence of Michl Hübner and Anders Mann from Königwald.
Note - Fußzecher might be some kind of farmer; see https://peterswald.org/en_US/geschichte/xi-die-gemeinde-konigswald/ for more info.
On the same day [21 November 1728] were married the honorable widower Tohmas Löbl Untterberge with the maiden Elisabeth, legitimate daughter of the very worthy Christoph [Brauthen?], hochfürstl[icher] Thunischer Schaafter from Königswald, in the presence of Hanß Löbel and Georg Vogl, both from Königswald.
Note - hochfürstl[icher] Thunischer Schaafter translates roughly to royal legal representative from Thun.
Also note - since you're researching in the Königswald area, you might find this book helpful - https://www.google.com/books/edition/Aus_dem_%C3%A4ltesten_Geschichts_Gebiete_Deu/1DsYXULAYKAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=fuss
I know it's all in German, but you can cut and paste parts of the text into ChatGPT and have it translate for you. A sort-of definition of Fusszecher appears on p. 260 of this book.
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Thank-you for that helpful information. That's the first time I've used ChatGPT! Very effective!
I appreciate your level of knowledge and research capabilities. After reading your response, a couple of things come to mind.
1.) I suspect that the Tohmas Lobel's referred too are two different individuals. Do you believe the citations reference the same individual? If so, do you mind sharing how you come to that conclusion?
2.) The german word, richter, is used extensively throughout Konigswald records. Initially, I used the direct translation, judge. But after seeing the frequency of the word, I suspect that the term may describe someone in public service. What do you think?
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Here's the death record for Anna, the wife that Tohmas Löbel married in 1726 -
and the translation -
On the 13th of the same month [May 1727], Anna, wife of Tohmas Löbel, judge in Tyssa, was buried. Age 52 years, 7 weeks.
So the timing works for this to be the same Tohmas for both marriages. Does the age work for your Tohmas?
The challenge in reconciling the two is the reference to Untterberge in the 1728 marriage record. In the other entries, when a place is mentioned, it usually says "aus town name" or "von town name" but not here. I couldn't find a place named Untterberge or Unterberge in the area around Königswald. Looking more closely at the word, I'm not sure it's Untterberge after all. Look at the first letter of the word, and compare it to the von 3 lines above this entry. You'll see that the first letter looks more like a V than a U, which would make the next letter an E, not an N. Still no hits for Vetterberge, though.
As far as Richter is concerned, I looked at some more records and saw it several times too, but not with great frequency in my admittedly short survey. I wonder if they're using this term like Gerichtsverwandter or des Gerichts, meaning lay member of the court, juryman, or member of the court. I haven't come across it much in my own family research in this area.
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Yes, it appears that Tohmas may have been married twice within two years. Thx for catching that! I'll study that a little bit further.
Regarding the term untternberge, I'd like your feedback regarding these ideas:
1.) For several Konigswald residents prior to 1772, I noticed that the scribe refers to their locations as Niederdorf and Oberdorf, which I believe means Lower vs Upper Konigswald. Furthermore, the terrain around Konigswald may be considered mountainness or at least lower vs higher elevations. The terrain may warrant an 'Upper' and 'Lower' residential designation. I also found that residents who lived in Lower Konigswald were later found (after 1772) with addresses below ~House #60 and residents who lived in Upper Konigswald were later found with addresses above ~House #60. Is my translation of Niederdorf vs Oberdorf warranted?
2.) Regarding the term Unterrnberge, I found two citations where the term is spelled with two words; unttern and berge. The literal translation is 'under mountains.' Is it possible that Unttern berge is another way of saying 'Lower Konigswald'?
Thank-you!
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Regarding both your questions, can you send me links to the references you're talking about? I'm not familiar enough with the area to say one way or another whether the terms you mentioned could be interchangeable with Königswald. Thanks!
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Use Google Translate or ChatGPT to read this article - it explains about Oberdorf and Niederdorf, and much more.
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This information is wonderful! Thank-you!
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Hello sylviaelchinger1,
In a text above, you provided a link to death records that are provided by the State Regional Archives of Leitmeritz. The link is still active. (See https://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=09ddd7cea03b9b8d:4e496e4e:12216bae987:-7063&scan=92ab6c44de584128a9c9a48c24a9f7c5)
About 6 months ago, I successfully opened and studied the State Regional Archives of Leitmertiz to research marriage records, birth records, and death records in the 1600's and 1700's. Unfortanately, I'm unable to access the Archives today. Furthermore, the links I made in familysearch have expired. Could you provide insight in how I might access the Archives again? Also, how do I set up the link so that they don't expire?
Any insight is helpful!
Thank-you!
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When you get to the image you want, you can't just click and copy the url at the top of your browser. That's just a "temporary" link that expires after your current session. Instead, you should click on the box directly above the record that says "Direct Link to Scan." this will bring up another window with the permalink to that record. Click on the url in this window, then do Ctrl+C (I don't know if it's the same command on a Mac) to copy the permalink url. Use that in your source information, not the temporary link at the top of the browser.
This is the link to get directly to the Leitmeritz archives - https://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/index4Clear.jsp
I had no trouble getting to the site or getting into the records this morning. Hope this helps.
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You did it! I exercised the link a few times and it works great! Thx for saving my research!
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Hello sylviaelchinger1,
Sorry to keep bothering you but, in another matter, I'm unable to locate marriage records for Tyssa, Tetschen, Bohemia, Austria (present-day Tisa Czechia) between the years 1784 and 1806 in the Czech Archives. The Archives include an alphabetized directory for these years but the directory has minimal information. Perhaps I'm not sufficiently familiar with performing a search but it seems straight forward.
Can you spare a minute to see if you can find Tyssa marriage records between the years 1784 and 1806? If you're successful, I'd be interested to know how you came to find the records.
Thank-you!
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I looked through the list of available records for Tyssa, and, like you, found that there is a gap for the years 1784-1821. I also saw the index that you refer to, and if your people are listed there, it's a good source to use even if it lacks detail. (Those Czech records provide so much detail!)
I also looked at FamilySearch, but the church records there don't start until way later, so that's no help. But FamilySearch does have land records for the years in question. The reason I mention this is that often, there would be a land transaction within a year, plus or minus, of the marriage date. The father, or perhaps the father-in-law, would sell a property to the groom for his new household. The purchase agreements can provide lots of detail beyond just the purchase price. Often, parents are given a life estate in the property, and there may be a list of what they are entitled to in terms of space, food, and so on. You can find these records on FamilySearch at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2T-LYS6?cat=olib%3A2787558&i=3&lang=en
or at the Leitmeritz Archives https://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=D3F42708E38F11E6BD797446A0B26E0A&scan=be1fb135aaef45ed86134a92717af7b2
One other thought - did you try looking at the records for Königswald? I seem to remember that some entries in those books mentioned people from Tyssa. https://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=09ddd7cea03b9b8d:30bdd2c7:1201ea2ef5b:-7c74&scan=0ddd1668083a4c16b2aa25341c4bb2dc
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Thanks for reviewing the Czech Archives and providing a second opinion! The Archives are an incredible resource and I wanted to ensure that records weren't overlooked.
Yes, I have reviewed Konigswald records on FamilySearch extensively. Up until 1784, Konigswald records included surrounding villages, including Tyssa. The records prove that my ancestry's place of origin includes Konigswald, Tyssa, and likely other nearby villages not yet studied. The research is intriguing! Germanic people lived in the area several hundred years, implying a high likelihood that families intermarried over several generations. I'm likely related to almost everyone in Konigswald, Tyssa, and surrounding villages.
Your advice regarding land records is well taken. I've been avoiding land records until now because of limited German language skills. However, without Tyssa marriage records, I'll need to cross the language barrier.
I'm sure I'll be in touch as I begin attempting to study land records in the area!
Thank-you very much!
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