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I need some assistance reading a marriage document from 1815 Netherlands. There is a long paragraph at the bottom of the page with items broken out by numbers. Number 5 mentions the parents of the bride and death dates that look like 1700 which makes no sense. I am especially needing information on the bride's mother Maria Peters my 5th great grandmother. The bride's FS ID is G7Y4-6GM.
Thanks for any help, Linda
Hello , Linda.
The year that makes no sense is to be read as a bracket," In den jare "; 'In the years, 1700, -'80 or '81. so 1780 or 1781 for the father of... and the next year for the woman you mention,Maria Peters= bracket is 1700, 4 or 1785, so 1784 and 1785 as yr.
Under nr 6 a previous wife is mentioned, Jacomina Schouten, deceased the 9th April of 1811; mentioned as housewife (huisvrouw -old spelling au)),.. so there was another marriage.
The subdivisions that you can see in the article are to keep the clarity of the doc and to separate the comparants of the article.If you have more to translate just ask.
Hello Linda,
The numbered items are references to supplements to the marriage certificate ("huwelijksbijlagen"). These supplements usually provide proof of vital events for those related to the marriage event: extracts from baptism, birth, burial, and death registers. Sometimes a real genealogical treasure!
In this case these supplements can be found here (images 717-724):
"Netherlands, Noord-Brabant Province, Civil Registration, 1811-1942," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-5394-59?cc=2026223&wc=MVFZ-7M9%3A1057385701%2C1057335801 : 22 May 2014), Sint Hubert > Geboorten, huwelijken, overlijden, huwelijksbijlagen, huwelijksaangiften, huwelijksafkondigingen 1840-1841 > image 717 of 1069; Nederlands Rijksarchiefdienst, Hertogenbosch (Netherlands National Archives, Hertogenbosch).
Unfortunately for Maria Peters no extract from a burial register could be shown, as such a register was not present at the time Maria died. This is declared by four witnesses who also stated that Maria must have died in 1784 or 1785 (image 723).
Awsome, !!, nice and very good tip. Do you master Dutch , gjt?. Anyway , what i often do to make this sort of faded documents better readable is sending them to the printer with contrast set for maximum, and if that does not do it , print the paper and overdraw what you can see with a very fine and hard pencil.Most of the time it will become readable.
As you state , a burial register was absent for the time Maria died , do you only mean the civil one or possibly also the one in a possible churchbook?
@Adrien Kintziger
Dutch? Yes, I am 200% Dutch😄
Pre-1811 (start of civil registration) there were only church books and tax books for burials. In Mill en Sint Hubert I could not find tax books and in the church books for the Roman Catholic religion that I browsed (registers and fiches) I could not find her death. There are no burial books of the Reformed religion.
So that confirms what the "huwelijksbijlage" says.
The "DTB-repertorium" has the available books for Mill en Sint Hubert as:
Thank you for the assistance on the dates. That is a method that I'm not familiar with. Also thanks for the link to the supplements - those are new to me also. Thank you also for the death date on the 1st wife; I wouldn't have figured that out.
I did find a death record in Mill at the RK church - my family in the Netherlands was all RK. It is in 1783 Oct 2nd. However another person has attached that record to a Maria Lambert Peters GSP9-W59. I'm not sure if the birth or death records that they claimed belong to her because all other records have her name as Maria Lamberts. The birth in 1724 and death in 1783 more closely fit with my Maria Peters. The death record does not give enough information to clarify. The birth has the father as Lamberti Peters so that may actually belong to Maria Lambert Peters and not my Maria Peters.
The images containing png's and terms 'pending' will not open in this box here, possibly copyright issues or allowance here still pending due to time differences. Posting the link itself will omit these hurdles.I always use split screen, and work with multiple tabs to cut/copy/paste links.Reading this 1783 okt page, ...surprising to see that many people died from dysenteria;? (dysenterie) in that area; a quick trawl along the web confirms it to be extensive in Brabant in that timeframe.Part of your problem, Linda, is that both Peters and Maria are very common names.I would take the dates as a lead,Lamberti for Lambert,but also consider Lamberti to be a given name , not a family name? ...What is your opinion GJT?, as a native you have more insights on naming protocols--.
So you are Dutch, well i'm Flemish father Belgian, mother Dutch.Mijn moeder was een Zeeuwtje van Westdorpe, en ik ben eigenlijk opgevoed met de Vara ,de Tros,Toon Hermans en Wim Sonneveld.Mijn haar komt recht bij het Wilhelmus.
Sorry about that. On my end the records show up just fine. For other people's posts it says pending, so I thought mine went through. Here they are again:
Marriage record of Maria Martens: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-57NC-X?i=377
Death record of a Maria Peters: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QJ-QXWK?i=186
I agree, the commonness of the name Maria Peters makes it very difficult to separate them. The little bit of information in the death records doesn't help either.
@L. Barney @Adrien Kintziger
Sorry for the silly empty comment I posted yesterday, don't know what went wrong...
I think it is unlikely that the 1724 born Maria is your Maria Peters, as that would mean she gave birth to Gerardus at age 51.
Also, the 1724 father Lambert(i) fits better in the patronymic name Maria Lambers for the Maria that married Antonius Nillissen van Escharen in 1757.
There are more candidates for your Maria Peters, like (in my opinion in descending order of probability):
May 2, 1733 https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/detail/68342665
Jul 11, 1729 https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/detail/68316095
Feb 8, 1726 https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/detail/68315062
Contradiction:
The 1788 burial record for Martinus Wilbers has him as married ("maritat"). Would mean Maria Peters was still alive then, or Martinus remarried after her death, or this 1788 burial is for some other Martinus Wilbers...
I do not see 'Martinus' for Marten Wilbers along the way,exept in your last posting,gjt,altough it would be the correct Latin-root probably, unless any unknown reason.
There are no silly postings.
I was referring to his profile: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/G87N-F6G
And to the source there that has March 12, 1788 as date of burial. The actual burial record can be found through https://www.bhic.nl/memorix/genealogy/search/persons?f=%7B%22search_i_datum%22:%7B%22v%22:%5B%2217880000%22,%2217889999%22%5D,%22d%22:%221788%20-%201788%22%7D%7D&sa=%7B%22person_1%22:%7B%22search_t_geslachtsnaam%22:%22wilb*%22,%22search_t_voornaam%22:%22mart*%22,%22search_t_plaats%22:%22Mill%20en%20Sint%20Hubert%22%7D,%22search_s_deed_type_title%22:%5B%22DTB%20begraafakte%22%5D%7D, going to image 370 in the register.
Thanks for the clarification, and the pointer to the actual pages, i could have 2 remarks for it.Linda left a location in the residence, as 'Tongelaar'- came out as a non standarised place,and there is a reason for that.The toponym is for this location on the next line. I'm not a habitual editor for other peoples pages,and maybe Linda is not aware of this castle naming.Sorry for the delay in response and short version typing, a chainsaw grabbed mij thumb and finger badly, stitched.
Secondary,i'n not very convinced that Martinus etc is really the correct person... (Marten(s) -Marten)
Wow, will you please be careful with powertools, we need you here! Hope you recover soon, with no permanent damage!
Thank you for your observations, I will leave it to Linda to make any changes she deems appropriate.
