www.portafontium.de
Birth/Baptism Record of Antonie Jirsova
I found a key record but I need some help with some of the parents and grandparents names
What I think I know..
-Antonie Jirsova - Born and Baptised on March 6, 1877 in Maly Bor, house #55
-Father - Jan Jirsa living in Maly Bor House #55. Son of Ma???? Jersa and Anny ????. Living in Maly Bor house #7.
-Mother-Anna Kezace (Razace) daughter of Josefa Kezace (Razace?) Living in Brezan, House 51 or 57? and Marie ?????. Not sure what that #12 is at the bottom or if a town name is mentioned
As you can see I need some help:)
It is the second entry from the top
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065516/maly-bor-21_0058-n?x=458&y=202&w=495&h=218
Comentarios
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This is the same one that Susan Sander translated later I believe. It just was made into two posts.
Betseylee Browning
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Here are the new documents I found last night
Birth record- Antonies brother, Matij
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065510/maly-bor-15_0118-n?x=-41&y=22&w=842&h=331
Marriage record Jan Jirsa & Anne Rezare (2nd entry from bottom)
http://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30065517/maly-bor-22_0067-o?x=84&y=452&w=651&h=256
I was surprised by the fact that Antonie was born nearly 20 years later than her brother.
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Carl ... hope you saw my earlier readings on the records. So good that you were able to find the birth record of Antonie's brother ... and then the marriage record. Re: Matje's wife Anna, daughter of Joseph Rezare of Brezany 51 and Marie Koutenske -- still not sure of the spelling. But I do believe she is from Chamovice # 33. And now that you have Matje and Anna's age it should be easier for find their birth records and perhaps another generation. If I have some time and patience I will take a look at that for you. Keeps me in practice. It does seem surprising that
Antonie and her brother were born 20 years apart ... just remember some women married a bit young ... and with good health could continue bearing children for many years. My own Hungarian grandmother had her first child at the same time that her own mother had her last child. So my greatgrandmother kept having children but the last ones did not survive. If you find more records post them and I will glad to take a look. Susan
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Hi Susan,
I did see your original reading. These other 2 records help clarify the names better I think.
You mentioned I should have Matej Jirsy & Anny Svobodovy's ages. Can you tell me what ages you think they are? I may have missed something important, and that would be real important information.
I'm going to recap what I know on this line, maybe you can let me know if you concur.
1) Antoine Jirsa (Jirsova) born 3/6/1877 in Mali Bor. House 55
2) Antonie's Parents-
Jan Jirsa and Anne Rezare They were married in Maly Bor on 1/22/1856
Jan Jirsa was born in Maly Bor House 55
Anne Rezare was born in Brežany House 51
3) Jan Jirsa's Parents
Matej Jersy, Maly Bor House 55?
Anne Svobodovy, Maly Bor House 7
4) Anna Rezare's Parents
Josefa Rezare -Brežany House 51
Marie Koutenske - Chamovice House 33
Let me know if this looks right
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Sorry I was not clear about that. I was writing about Jan Jirsa age 24 and Anna Rezare age 24 .... Likely all of them are in the same time frame. I will do a bit more checking though. The record said the marriage took place in 1856 and both of them were 24 meaning b. about 1832
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Thanks for the clarification on the ages Susan. I did a little checking today looking for marriage records of Matej Jirsy and Anny Svobodovy
but didn't have much luck. Maybe if the birth records of Jan Jirsa and Anna Rezare can be found it would give a better indication of where to
seek the marriage record.
My father is having a heart procedure tomorrow so I will most likely be off line most of the day. I really do appreciate your help- Carl
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Carl ... my thoughts and prayers are with you and your father as he has his procedure. Always a scary time. I will be out most of the day ... but still willing to help search and read records. I have looked a bit for marriage and birth records with no luck so far. Keep in mind that marriages almost always took place in the village of the bride. I am guessing that while it appears that most records are on line or digitized ... not all of them are. It appears that all the information you have listed in an earlier post are correct .... nice that sometimes handwriting becomes clearer ...and then also the opposite can happen ... and the writing looks exactly the same. I try and remember we are so lucky to have access to these records and at no cost to us other than our time. My best "guess" is that since Jan Jirsa was listed as being from Maly Bor and wife Anna is listed as father from Brezany ... records will be listed in a grouping that includes Brezany. I will check also in Chamovice since Anna could have been born in the village of her mother Marie Koutenske. Best wishes to you and your family. Susan
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A bit of good news: birth record for Anna Rezare -- I don't know how to post a link but here is the location: Maly Bor 15 page 35. Born 27
August 1831. Record very hard to read ...does not seem to have any more information than you already have; Next: found two birth records at House# 55 ... both appear to be Jirsa .... again very hard to read. Father appears to be Matey Jirsa; Mother looks like
Antonine but then says something about deceased Matey and Anny. First of these birth records: Maly Bor 15 page 24 date: 25 September 1830; Witness looks to be Paul or Pavel which is the Czech name Jirsi; Second record: Maly Bor 15 page 51; date 8 December 1832. I think both of them are worth spending time on to decipher the writing. Sometimes I find the easiest way to find a record is search on House # ... they don't appear to move often and famiies tend to live together in several generations. Hope this helps. I will look at these records again to see if I can decipher them. Hope your day is going well.
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Found two more entries .... one looks like a good match probably for a sibling of Jan Jirsi
Maly Bor 15 p. 85 Magdalena Jirsa b. 13 January 1843 daughter of Matey Jirsi and Anna daughter of deceased Vaclav ??? Svoboda and mother Josefa ??? born town listed .. it could be Maly bor ....
Second entry: Maly Bor 15 page 64 Matej Jirsa born 2 February 1834 ... this one is similar to the earlier one with mother an Antonine ... but worth taking a look at.
I might take a break but at least you can take a look at these entries later.
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I am guessing there are two Matej Jirsa's living at 55 ...one married to your Anna Svoboda and the other is Antonie. Searched again for the birth record of Jan Jirsi ... no luck so far unless my eyes are playing tricks on me. I'm going to go back to Maly Bor 15 page 85 ... maybe if I squinch my eyes I'll be better able to read it. Hope you are having a relaxing evening.
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Found another birth record for Matej Jirsa Maly Bor 15 pAGE 118...This one is much easier to read. Matey Jirsa b. 6 ryna 1856 -- I forget what month is ..sorry. Unfortunately, this Matej died 20 November 1857;
Jan Jirsa son of Matej Jirsy # 55 and Anny Svoboda of Maly bor # 7
and Anna daughter of Jozefa Rezare chalupna of Brezany # 51 and Marie Koutenske Cham.... # 33
Still no luck finding the birth of Jan Jirsa
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Hi Susan, I'm glad to say my 85yr old father came through his procedure (a heart stent)
well. I'm relieved, but need to decompress and relax tonight.
You have definitely found a lot of information. I'm really excited that you found Ann Rezare birth record. Maybe you can take a second close look at it, when time allows, and see if it gives any of Ann Rezare's grandparent's names. I can't really tell.
You are right in terms of the Matej Jirsa (who was born in 1856 and died the next year) He is definitely the son of Jan Jirsa and Ann Svoboda (i'm sure named after his paternal grandfather) and most likely the grandfather Matej also lived at the same address.
Thank you for all your help, I'd like to study some of the other records you discovered tomorrow. - Carl
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Carl ... these are the times that we become so grateful for the skill and knowledge of the doctors who care for us. I understand your stress. My twin brother needed heart procedures when he was 50 ... what a odd place to have to spend your 50th birthday ... in the hospital ... and then later needing a bypass. We just turned 75 and he is still doing well ... so I am closer in age to your Dad. Hope you have many more years together. I will take another look at those records. I've seen more records for House # 51 but the surname is not Rezare ... perhaps they moved. I'll continue looking at the records. I joke about squinching my eyes .... but sometimes the more you look the words kind of just pop out and become clear. And then looking at death records sometimes helps find more information. Enjoy the rest of the day and I'll be back ... this type of stuff keeps me "out of trouble" ... and interested. I think everyone needs to have either a job or hobby that keeps their brain occupied. Susan
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Decided to take my own advice and look at death records. Two good records. Maly Bor 23 death records page 13
Death of Matey Jirsa domiciled at Maly Bor 55... 28 April 1875 ... died age 80 meaning born about 1795
Second: death record of a child: page 11 27 ryen 1874 -- Katerina age 9 ... born about 1865; daughter of Jana Cheloupka born Maly bor 90 and mother: Frantisky born Jirasovy of Maly bor 55.
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Found a few more possibiities: marriage record for Vaclav age 24 ...cannot read name house # 27; married to Rozalia age 25 daughter of Matej Jirsa # 55 located at Maly bor 08 page 40 -- date 1789; Second record: Maly bor 18 index for births; Jirsa Jan 1795 page 16 or 17 I cannot read the town it is not Maly bor ...; Maly bor 10 page 161 Jan Jirsa born 24 Dec 1795 House # 15 ... hard to read; Father: Frantisek mother Dorota ...again hard to read However I believe this Jan Jirsa may have died in 1796 ... index shows a death in 1796.
But at least you have the mother and father. Cannot find a Matej born in 1785 .... even in the index which again is hard to read. Will be checking a list of locality names to see if I can identify where this Jan Jirsa b. 1795 was born ... I think it starts with Ty....
Taking a break now ... smile ... everyone needs one.
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Hi Susan, I believe you did find the death record of Matij Jirsy! I wish they would have mentioned his wife's name (Anny Svobodovy) or had given the name of his parents, but unfortunately they did not.
I wonder if the town you mentioned that begins with a Ty... is Týnec. This town is included in many of the same Maly Bor records. If you go back to Maly Bor 10 on image 158 on the filmstrip is the start of the Tyec records.
I have to go pick up my dad from the hospital and bring him home, I'll check back later- Carl
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Carl ... You are correct ...I did see Tynec (Teinitz) and the house # is 15 .... when I start looking again I'll search out that house #.
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More things to look at: Marriage record for Frantisky daughter of Matey Jirsy of Maly bor 55 and
Anny Svoboda Maly bor #7 date: 6 October 1860 -- page 76 of Maly Bor 22;
Now another record listing Anny Svoboda listed her as a daughter of Vaclav ... at least that is how I read it.
Another marriage record that could be connected to Anny Svobody at Maly bor 55 is :
Karel Svoboda age 24 son of Vaclav Svoboda at Maly bor # 7 ... mother: Marie Benedict of Maly bor 40.
This record is at Maly bor 22 page 77 Maly bor 22; marriage if 5 Feb 1861 born circa 1837. Karel Svoboda could be the brother of your Anny Svoboda Hope this isn't getting too confusing. I just figure the more information you can accumulate the better.
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Susan, Can you take a look at this record, Might be the birth record of Anny Svoboda. Feb 2 ,1801 House 7. I see a Vaclav as the father, but you had a possible wife of Vaclav, as Marie Benedict
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065505/maly-bor-10_0280-n?x=-147&y=-34&w=1171&h=460
Let me know if this may be Anny's birth record. Also, it may have a marriage date noted that was added
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I have to say it is confusing ..... the birth record you found for Anna Svoboda 1801 daughter of Vaclav and Josefa daughter of maybe Peter cannot read surname. Jan Jirsa son of Matey and Anny Svoboda was married in 1856 If 1801 is Anna's correct birth she would have been about 55 at the time of Jan Jirsa marriage .... I guess this is logical.
The record I found for a Karel Svoboda son of Vaclav and Marie Benedict ... Karel was 24 at the time of his marriage in 1861 making him born about 1837 ....so the time frame is also logical It does appear as if you found Anna Svoboda's birth record. Did you notice the writing underneath her name. Looks like it was referring to her baptismal record and then her marriage record 21 April 1828 ... unfortunatly I cannot find this marriage record ... would be great if we could. There could have been more than one Vaclav Svoboda living at House # 7. All goes to show the more you look the more you find ..... best to keep looking, right?
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I do think that it is Anny Svoboda's Birth record, born in 1801, Her husband Matej Jirsy was born around 1795 according to his death record, that would make her about 6 years younger than him.
I think you are absolutely right that there was more than 1 Vaclav Svoboda, I believe he was Anny's brother. I found what I believe is his Death record here..
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065518/maly-bor-23_0027-z?x=14&y=206&w=290&h=261
Died Dec 9, 1882. Age 77 , That puts him born around 1805, A few years younger than Anny.
What I am wondering is the Marie Benedict possibly Vaclov's husband? The brother of Anny rather than the father?
I did see that 1828 date .. I bet that is the marriage date of Matej Jersy and Anny Svobodovy. Let me regroup with you tomorrow.
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I'll take a look tomorrow also. Would be nice (for researchers) if they gave more information in some of these records. Guess we should just be pleased the records are available and free. You are right ... Anna's birth around 1801 goes right along with Matej's birth around 1795. Unfortuntunatey those records seem to be among the missing. So nice to be able to pull these thing together ...isn't it? Is your dad interested in the research you are doing? My father passed in 1976 before I knew anything. Finding his birth certificate started my quest. He was born in Hungary in 1910 and if he had survived he'd be doing this right along with me. His sister passed away at the age of 100 last year ... and she was so delighted that she could trace her line ten generations. My Mom on the other hand was interested but also leary that we were going to find a few skeletons in the closet. But her younger sister is very interested and keeping her own book of record copies. Enjoy the evening and e-talk to you tomorrow. Susan
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It certainly looks as if this the death record for Anny's brother Vaclav .. age 77 meaning b ca 1805. the word in the entry zenaty means married ... too bad they didn't indicate the wife's name. The heading at the top of one of the columns Misto pohrebni translates as funeral home.
Not sure if you read the entry at the bottom of the page. It is a death record for Karel Svoboda age 46 (b ca 1837) syn of Vaclav # 7 and Marie Benedict # 20 That record gives the exact age 46 years 1 month 13 days died 12 brezna 1883.
I think you are slowly pulling together the entire family. Susan
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I found the death record of Jan Jirsa
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065518/maly-bor-23_0050-z?x=-225&y=-41&w=1784&h=701
This death record mentions both wife and parents names. It also shows years, months and days lived, if it is correct, than his birth date would be 12/26/1931
Let me ask you a general question on Czec Death Records. Lets say I am looking for a female death record. If her and her husband resided in say house 55 in Maly, but obviously she was born in a different house, when I am scanning death records should I look for the current residence house #, or the house # where she was born?
Both my parents enjoy learning about their family roots. I just wish I could go farther back on their German Roots.
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We are definitely on the same genealogical trail. I just located the death record for Jan Jirsi with all that delicious informaton including his age of 61 years 5 months and 12 days ...I'll let you do the honor of determining his exact date of birth (smile) ca 1832! Ah I see you already did it ...did you find the exact record? Nice to hear both your parents enjoy your research. How far back have you searched your German roots? Re: your question ... I believe death records are kept in the location where the death occurred. So that is where I would search first. Then I believe the death record might indicate the house where she was born. Of course, this all depends on how detailed the recorder is behaving. I used to joke with my Hungarian researchers that the recorder or deacon had a bottle of wine to drink while he wrote ... the less wine left in the bottle the less info ... and then I went one further ... sometimes it looks as if it was written with the claw of the chicken... and the chicken was still alive. Of course, only joking of course ... am always happy to find a record.
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I Found the Death record of Anne Rezare
http://www.portafontium.de/iipimage/30065518/maly-bor-23_0054-z?x=-159&y=95&w=976&h=383
She died in 11/2/1895. It was interesting they had her listed as her married name. Also I noticed they are changing the husband last name to Jirsovi. These name changes in these records are confusing.. I have a family tree program I use, and I'm never really sure what is the "official" name I should be using.
I love your little saying about the deacon. Obviously this Deacon loved his wine with many of this families records
My paternal German roots are in Mömbris, Aschaffenburg, Bayern, Germany
My maternal German roots are in Kassel, Hessen, Germany (it is also spelled Cassel)
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Here is my suggestion. Choose the "official" name such as Jirsi ... and then add a note listing variations. i believe this depends on the grammar of the Czech language which determine tense and spelling. I just know that with Hala vs. Haly. Hala is the official name. I have seen that before where a woman was listed as her married name rather than maiden name ...I think it is the exception to the rule ... and rules do get broken or twisted. Might depend on that bottle of wine again.
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Not sure if this will help but I found a Jirsa birth record: Maly bor 10; 6 June 1797 Rozalia Jirsova;father:
Antonin Jirsa; mother: Rozalia daughter of deceased Simonova
Keep in mind that there were other birth records we have found listing an Antonin Jirsa living a # 55 Maly bor listed as father.
Looking at my notes: Maly bor 10 page 161 Jan Jirsa b. 24 December 1795 House # 15
father: Frantisek mother: Dorota daughter of deceased ???? I think it reads Simonovi .... hard to read the rest ...but this must be your Jan Jirsi .... what do you think? In the Index Maly bor 18 page 16 or 17; Jan Jirsi 1795 looks like it says Teinitz page
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I think I just figured it out .. common sense ...the death record for Jan Jirsa died age 80 is for a different Jan Jirsa ..probably a first cousin.
The one who was born in 1795 Dec was the son of Frantisek and Dorota ... Frantisek is likely a brother of Matey married to Anny Svoboda.
A bit disapointing ... but likely means you are just expanding the tree side ways. Frantisek and Matey likely brothers.
Now I am disappointed that I didn't make a note of any births with the father Antonin Jirsa. Lesson learned too late. Good news is that he lived at Maly bor House # 55 making it easier to find the record. Now remember at Maly Bor 21 there was an Antonie Jirsova b. 6 March 1877 House # 55 ... might be a good idea to take another look.
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I forgot to list where the 1895 Jan Jirsa birth record is found. Well perhaps I listed it earlier: Maly bor 10 page 161
Jan Jirsa 24 December 1795 House # 15 father: Frantisek mother: Dorota daughter of deceased Simonivi
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