Help with marriage record and finding bride
Link is for 1804 marriage of Catherine Elisabeth Ernst. I am likely reading wrong as unable to find Catherine's birth record. Thank you for any direction. Deniese
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/hildesheim/adlum-st-georg/0012_02/?pg=44
Respuestas
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Groom: Hermannus Henricus (Hermann Heinrich) Nören, from Adelum (Adlum), 35 years old, widower.
Bride: Catharina Elisabeth Ernst, from Machzum (Machtsum), 23 years old, virgin (maiden).
First witness: Henricus (Heinrich) Nören, brother of the groom.
Second witness: Josephus (Joseph) Kaniken, from Machzum (Machtsum).
Marriage date: 31 July 1804.
Comment: The bride and groom were related by blood in the second degree (first cousins) and required dispensation/permission from the church to marry.
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Here is the link for what I believe is the baptismal record for Catharina Elisabeth Ernst from the neighboring parish of Borsum:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/hildesheim/borsum-st-martinus/0233/?pg=152
It is the last record on the right hand-page.
Translation:
Baptized from Machzum (Machtsum) Catharina Lisabeth, legitimate daughter of Cord Ernst and Catharina Lisabeth Gereke. Godmother: Catharina Lisabeth Ernst, from Borsum.
Date: 27 December 1780.
Comment: When Catharina Elisabeth Ernst married in July 1805, her age was recorded as 23 years old. Given a birth in December 1780, this age would be correct in July 1805, as she would not turn 24 years old until December 1805.
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I was on the right path.:) I think I saw this birth record just didn't read it well enough or missed it. This Nören- Ernst-Hartman family has been an interesting chase. Have to be very careful of names and dates and parents. Now 1st cousins. I say you and all the community helpers are like guardian angels. Thank you ever so much.
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You're welcome, Deniese.
Based on the 1804 marriage record which stated that the bride was from Machtsum, I first looked on Matricula for Machtsum parish records, but those records don't start until 1897 and there are no baptismal records.
So I used Meyers Gazetteer to determine the closest Catholic parish to Machtsum and saw that the Catholic parish of Borsum was about a mile away and gave it a try.
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The marriage record lists Borsum and so I looked there just don't think I looked in right year. ☺
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Robert, I really do hate to be a pest but as you have time could you please help me review these two brothers and spouses and children's sources. The first brother, Conrad Henric is married to a Catherine Elisabeth Ernst. The first 3 children I have listed for them seemed to be correct except mother is listed as Maria Elisabeth ( M Elisabeth, Maria Elisabeth Magdalene). Then the last 3 children's mother is listed as Catherine Elisabeth. The brother is Herman Henric. 1st wife Catherine Elisabeth Hartman, died same year as birth of only son. Which agrees with note that he is widower in marriage record to 2nd wife Catherine Elisabeth Ernst (but not same Catherine Elisabeth Ernst as brother married). Confused yet?? I would appreciate a second look to be sure I haven't made any big error, understanding we do our best and mistakes will be corrected. I have birth and marriages sourced. Conrad is G769-XXJ. Herman G93C-YWY. No rush please just as you can. Thank you.
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Thus far, I've looked at the first couple Conrad Henric Nören (G769-XXJ) and his wife Catharine Elisabeth Ernst (G764-N8H) and their six children. I have reviewed the actual birth records for all of them as well as the couple's November 1792 marriage record.
Some questions for you:
(1) In Conrad Henric Nören's 1766 birth record, how did you decide his name was Conrad Henric Nören, when the child's name was not recorded?
(2) In Catherine Elisabeth Ernst's 1770 birth record, how did you decide her name was Catherine Elisabeth, when the child's name was not recorded.
(3) In this couple's November 1792 marriage record, how did you decide that the groom, Henricus Nören, was the same as the child born in 1766? How did you decide that the bride Catharina Elisabetha Ernst, was the same as the child born in 1770?
I ask these questions so I can see what your thought process was.
I am going to assume that you have thoroughly searched through all of these parish records and that the male child born in 1766 and the female child born in 1770 are the most likely candidates to be the groom and the bride in the 1792 marriage record.
It would be helpful to find death records for both Conrad Henric Nören (G769-XXJ) and Catharine Elisabeth Ernst (G764-N8H), and if those death records have their ages, you could compare them to the respective birth records from 1766 and 1770.
I've reviewed the children's records as well.
Let's deal with child no. 6 Johann Henric Nöric, born in November 1805. He is not the child of Henric Nören and Catharina Elisabeth Ernst.
Here is the link for this child's birth:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/hildesheim/adlum-st-georg/0013_01/?pg=7
The record is no. 16 and his parents are Herman Henric Nören and Catharina Elisabeth Ernst, the couple who married on 31 July 1804. This child should be moved over to them.
For the other children, the only odd thing is that the mother's name changes from Maria Elisabetha to Catharina Elisabeth. Since the name "Elisabeth(a)" is the only commonality among the five births, you may want to consider simply listing the mother as "Elisabeth Ernst" and adding the other names as alternatives.
I think you've done a very good job dealing with some very difficult records. The fact that some of the earlier birth/baptismal records don't list the child's name and the marriage records don't list the groom's parents and the bride's parents, as well as the fact that you have lots of different people with the names Nören, Hartmann, and Ernst, makes searching in these parish records extremely challenging. Other than moving child no. 6 to the other couple, I did not see anything that stood out as incorrect. Keep up the good work.
When I get the time, I still plan to look at the records for Hermann Henric Nören (G93C-YWY) and his family.
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Question 1 and 2- I have been told that the child is commonly named same as godfather/mother or at least part of the given name. So from Conrad's birth his patri was a Conrad Henric and a Catherine for Catherine. In their marriage record a more complete name of Catherine Elisabeth. The other factor I used is time frame. Catherine born 1770 so in 1790 she is 20 so I typically look for a marriage putting ages between 18-30 and try to match as much as I can such as parents names if given. I realize my methods probably need to be better but lack of knowledge of language I do my best and try to listen to the spirit.. If you have suggestions I would be happy to learn. 30 years ago I wrote to archives in Osnabrück where I new my great grandparents came from. They sent back with 2 more generations but names and dates only. 3 years ago I was told by a user on another site to try matricula. I worked thru the wiki lessons on learning old German script. Over course of a year I added an additional 2-4 generations to the ones given me 30 years prior. Plus followed the descendants forward to at least 1900. Still searching. Still learning. I will move child 6 over to other parents and will look for death dates for Conrad and Catherine. Thank you much.
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Hello Deniese,
Your search strategy and rationale for selecting the birth records and the marriage record for this couple (Conrad Henric Nören and Catherine Elisabeth Ernst) make good sense to me.
Yes, I, too, have been told in the past that when a child is not named in the baptismal record, he/she may be given the name of the baptismal sponsor. I emphasize "may" because that may not always be the case.
That said, when Conrad Henric Nören and Catherine Elisabeth Hurst marry in 1792, based on the birth records, Conrad Henric would have been just shy of 26 years old and Catherine Elisabeth would have been 22 years old, both of appropriate marrying age.
I believe I have found the death records for both Conrad Henric Nören and Catherine Elisabeth Ernst in the parish of Adlum, and their ages at death match very closely with the birth records you found for them.
Here is the link for the death record for Conrad Henric Nören:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/hildesheim/adlum-st-georg/0015/?pg=57
It is record no. 4 for the year 1845. The decedent is identified as "Ricus" Nören (Ricus is most likely a nickname for Heinrich/Henricus). He dies on 4 February 1845 at the age of 78 years, 1 month and 8 days. This calculates to a birth in late December 1766. He leaves behind a widow and three adult children, and at the time of his death, he was in his 53rd year of marriage, which matches well with the marriage date of 1792.
Here is the link for the death record for Catherine Elisabeth (Ernst) Nören:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/hildesheim/adlum-st-georg/0015/?pg=58
It is record no. 6. The decedent is identified as Catherine Elisabeth Nören, née Ernst, a widow, and she leaves behind 3 adult children. She dies on 30 September 1846 and her age at death matches with her birth date of 8 March 1770.
So, I believe you have selected the correct birth records for this couple.
Well done. Keep up the good research work!
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Re: Hermann Henric Nören (G93C-YWY) and his two wives, Catharina Elisabeth Hartmann (G93C-RFS), and Catherine Elisabeth Ernst (G76L-44L).
The information you input for both of these couples in "Family Tree" appears accurate and correct. You have done a good job here and I don't see anything that stands out as incorrect.
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Robert. Thank you so much for looking at these records for me. I have one question. On death record for Catherine 1846 you say she died end of August. As I do not read the months well I thought Sep. So what in the column is the 4th Oct??
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Great catch, Deniese!
That was a typo on my part. Yes, Catharine Elisabeth (Ernst) Nören died on 30 September 1846. And now her age at death matches perfectly with her birth date of 8 March 1770.
I will go back and edit my previous response to you so there is no confusion in the future.
The date of 4 Oct 1846 is Catherine's burial date.
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Ok. So now confused on Henric' S death record. Death date looks to be 4th Jan but burial Feb????
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No. Henric dies on "vierten Februar Morgens 1/2 10 Uhr" = 4th of February at 9:30 o'clock in the morning.
He is buried on the 8th of February at 9 o'clock in the morning.
To see the difference between how the months of January and February are written in German, compare "Februar" as written in Henric's death and burial columns with "Januar" written in the same columns in the record immediately above.
Can you see the difference between "Januar" and Februar" now?
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Last question, for awhile anyways. 2 entries above Henric's death is another Catherine Elisabeth Nören born Ernst. Would you agree this is 2nd wife of brother Herman? If so is death date Jan 2?
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Yes I am seeing Jan and Feb and better getting morning and hours. My error was adding the 78 years 1 month 8 days. I wasn't adding the 1 month correct. Got it now.
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Yes, I agree that Catherine Elisabeth Nören, née Ernst, two entries above Henric's death record, is the second wife of Hermann Henric Nören.
Her date of death as written in the record is:
"am sechsten Januar, Morgens 5 Uhr" = on the 6th of January, 5 o'clock in the morning.
She is buried on the 9th of January, at 10 o'clock in the morning.
She is listed as a widow and she leaves behind four adult children.
Her age is recorded as 64 years. If you recall from her baptismal record, she was baptized on 27 Dec 1780. Thus she would have turned 64 during the last week of December 1844, approximately a week or so before her death on 6 January 1845. So her age at death matches very closely with her baptismal record.
I think you are doing very well with you research. Keep up the good work.
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Thank you. Crazy family. Really have to read each entry careful to not confuse. Must have been interesting to have brothers with wives with same names all sitting around together. Lol. Thank you also for the German lessons. H have a great day.
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