Trgovcic's from Brig/Bregi near Zagreb
George Tgovcic Welk (possibly Gjuro Trgovcic from Brig in 1905) Believed born 1889, always noted as "Agram".
Digging back into our maternal Grandfathers past. We are pretty solid from 1910 forward. The rest is why I am here! Family lore is that he came to US from Zagreb. That is about it. A few stories of when he met other people from his country, Mom reported that he would talk in a foreign language. We started digging deeper about ten years ago, unfortunately Mom passed unexpectedly in 2018. So we are on our own.
I/we have a lot of material that may or may-not be connected to the immigration story. In general - we think young Gjuro Trgovcic arrived in New York 27-MAR-1905, noted as coming from "Brig", went to Kansas City KANSAS to stay with his Uncle Imro/Imbio Trgovcic, possibly working in the meat packing plants there. He ultimately arrives in a Dallas, Oregon logging camp in 1910, now named George Trgovcic Welk.
Brother Dan and I decided it was time to tackle the immigration story. The 1918 Naturalization papers are not much help for this theory - they are all dated for arrival in 1903 on a ship "Langantan" which does not exist, on a date that does not match the most likely phonetically correct ship "La Bretagne". As we scoured the immigration lists - there are a number of people in groups coming to the US headed for Kansas not just from Croatia, but from Brig/Bregi. We found an Uncle Imro (Tukovic) had a brother Stepan Tukovic both from Bedenica, Zagreb - so the easy way out is to say "Hey - Stepan is brother to (Uncle) Imro - so Father to Gjurg/George" and go home. Doubt it is that easy!
Asking for some moral support - how likely is it that we can find out more about Nedjeljski Brijeg/Svetonedeljski Breg (or Brig/Bregi), and learn that our grandfather was from there. Or - find what is actually right. Or even learn we cannot learn the answers?
Pic below is GoogleEarth from Brig/Bregi SW of Zagreb. Very similar to where he ended up in Oregon. My avatar is him entering the US Marine Corps in 1918. A detailed biography is on Ancestry at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/104767570/person/142153926238/facts
Thanks!
Comentarios
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Hi,
Have you checked the church books of Lupoglav near Bregi? That is the place where the people around your Gjuro Trgovcic on the passenger list of 1905 seem to come from and so often people from places close together travelled together.
Maybe Zagreb was just used as the place where he came from because it is the capital of Croatia and people didn't know the exact place where he came from?
The catholic church books from Lupoglav are on familysearch and there seem to be birth records of around the right time. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L99X-3X8S?owc=9RKB-7M9%3A391644801%3Fcc%3D2040054&wc=9R2Q-C6T%3A391644801%2C392138501%2C391731102&cc=2040054
All the very best wishes for your search
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Thank-you everyone - I have enjoyed exploring the Croatian Heritage of our family through our Grandfather. The available on-line and in-person resources are simply amazing! I have had a few people reach out to help me get started – and I really appreciate that.
At this point – it seems quite possible that that the story of Grandfather George Trgovcic Welk coming to America is in the Church Records of Croatia. It would be easy to call it “good” and go on – but – there are a number of details buried in the immigration records, the census records (both state and Federal), crazy name changes and more that I want to explore before making that claim to my family.
I ask your help me in understanding the Church Census Records. It was suggested I spend time looking through the Census and Birth Records from Lupoglav (which seem to also cover Precec). The key pages are here – pages 411 and 456 of the microfilm. There is another family of Trgovcic’s on pages 410 and 455.
Croatia, Church Books, 1516-1994 Roman Catholic (Rimokatolička crkva) Lupoglav
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L99F-6N6S?wc=9R2X-BZC%3A391644801%2C392138501%2C392139001&cc=2040054I have copied the key parts I have questions for today into an image below – there will likely be others as I/We solve this puzzle. I have marked a partial page to illustrate the questions – again – using Page 456.
Q1. The name “Trgovcic” for both families has a “–Mali” or “-Veliki” suffix added (large and small?). It has been suggested that these suffixes were a way for the church to keep the same named families separate. We think Gjuro/George Trgovcic added the “Veleki” as “Welk” at some point after between 1905 and 1910 while in America. Thoughts?
Q2. Does the first pair of letters “AA” on these pages generally represent the parents of the children below?
Q3. In the second column from the left there are the letters from A-F. I think these represent the head of the family as “A” and the birth of children from B-F. The spouses appear to be matched with the same letter of the alphabet. It appears that the children of the marriage are shown below the couple with matching letters – but without letters. If I am correct – Gjuro Trgovcic was the son of Andro and Cila, born 31-MAR-1889 (although Trgovcic/Welk used 24-APR-1889 on nearly all official documents in the US). Can you tell me if my understanding on family structure is correct.?
Q4. In the first and second columns from the left are a series of crosses. Some are upright, some are slanted. It appears to me that these represent the death of the person with the cross. Is the orientation of the cross significant? Am I correct in this?
Q5. In the columns between Birth and Marriage there are a few notes. It strikes me that the “hard to read” ones for B. Imbro (1855), H. Mato (1880) say “In America”. Gjuro (1889) does not have one – he would likely have come to America in 1905 (possibly 1903). Am I right on this – and what are the other notes? I can repost asking for a translation if needed, especially for Ivan (b1890/91), brother to Gjuro.
That is enough for today – I look forward to learning what I have and hopefully moving forward - I am sure there will be more questions later!
Image of my questions related to page 456!
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