Can someone please transcribe the attached churchbook page from Passenheim?
Can someone please transcribe the attached churchbook page from Passenheim? If possible a complete word for word transcription in german would be appreciated. Thank you.
Comentarios
-
The quality of the image is unfortunately rather poor. He is what I can decipher:
Dom. 16 p. Trinit.
Der Instmann Jacob
Opalka aus Schützendorf
mit? seiner Abg? Schiedman?
Maria Opalka geb. Buttler
aus Georgensguth ___
________? Wittwer
_________?
der Bürger u. Bäckermeister
Michael Brosk von
hier, auch? der Wittwe
Louise des verstorbenen
____? Johann Troeder
in ___? hinterblieb_
Wittwe ___ Burdungen
________ ___
Do you have more info on this record? Is it supposed to be a marriage? Can you post a link to the original?
Thank you!
1 -
I believe this is a marriage record, however, the transcription was made as a birth record.
Ancestry.com - Germany, Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1567-1945
or
I believe this is a transcription error because the church book that the record is contained in is for marriages.
0 -
I suspect this is actually two separate marriage records. One for Jacob Opalka and Maria Buttler. And a second record for Michael Brosk and Louise (Lovisa) Troeder. I am speculating Maria Buttler is also recorded as Maria Butlern (born before 1808) in other Passenheim church book records. In my research tree I have:
Something I will have to look into further are the records I have for Lovisa Troeder
The transcription for Lovisa Troeder (Louisa Troeder - From Schützendorf) uses the exact same page used for Michael Brosk only he is not mentioned in this transcription:
During my manual review of the 347 digital pages of this churchbook I found there to be hundreds of transcription errors with dates and spellings. (I am not being sarcastic.) I gave up making corrections when I reached 1855. Here are some of my notes:
Passenheim Churchbook – Ortelsburg – Ostpreussen
347 pages in digital record
Notes:
1. There are a significant number of incorrectly transcribed dates in the original transcription.
2. Starting on page 147 are five pages that are out of order and had to be compared with the “Seite” number to determine the correct dates.
3. After the five pages, and starting on page 152, it appears a second churchbook from Passenheim begins with the date 3 p. Trinitatis 1847.
Book 1. Marriages 1839-1847
· 1839 starts on page 4 (Seite 1)
· 1840 starts on page 21 (Seite 18)
· 1841 starts on page 36 (Seite 34)
· 1842 starts on page 53 (Seite 51)
· 1843 starts on page 72 (Seite 70)
· 1844 starts on page 150 (Seite 89) *This page is out of order in the online record. Return to page 89 (Seite 90) for the year 1844.
· 1845 starts on page 107 (Seite 108)
· 1846 starts on page 125 (Seite 126)
· 1847 starts on page 139 (Seite 141)
Book 2 (same electronic copy) also from Passenheim 1848 to 1861
· 1848 starts on page 162 (Seite 158)
· 1849 starts on page 181 (Seite 177)
· 1850 starts on page 200 (Seite 196)
· 1851 starts on page 214 (Seite 210)
· 1852 starts on page 231 (Seite 227)
· 1853 starts on page 242 (Seite 238)
· 1854 starts on page 255 (Seite 251)
· 1855 starts on page …go to book for more information…got tired of making corrections in this book.
Ancestry.com - Germany, Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1567-1945
I am grateful for your assistance!
0 -
Updated church book page with comments.
0 -
Never trust a transcription you haven't done yourself... 😉 But seriously, I have seen so many errors that I can take a posted transcription only as a "hint" which I must weigh against other evidence.
Taking your additional input into account I would agree that these are probably two separate marriage records, one for Jacob Opalka (or is it Opatka? there is a stroke through the "l" in both cases) with Maria Buttler (but why is she called already Opalka/Opatka?; this is unusal in a marriage record).
The other for Michael Brosk with Louise/Lovisa Troeder. What I read as "auch?" is apparently "mit".
Here my corrected transcription:
Dom. 16 p. Trinit.
Der Instmann Jacob
Opatka aus Schützendorf
mit? seiner Abg? Schiedman?
Maria Opatka geb. Buttler
aus Georgensguth ___
________? Wittwer
_________?
der Bürger u. Bäckermeister
Michael Brosk von
hier, mit der Wittwe
Louise des verstorbenen
Schusterm? Johann Troeder
in ___? hinterblieb_
Wittwe ___ Burdungen
________ ___
Can "Abg? Schiedman?" be "abgeschiedenen?" But this would mean that she is dead....?
1 -
I am reluctant to post this comment since you both are so very much more skilled in reading these documents than I . Since the first entry is apparently Jacob marrying his deceased wife and the second is Michael marrying his widow Lousie (so Michael is dead), is it possible that this is actually an awkwardly worded marriage of Jacob to Louise?
0 -
Hello,
looking at the record you posted, I have to say it is an odd entry. Do you have more information (other evidence) that will confirm that we are looking at a marriage record?
1 -
The record is recorded in a series of pages with other marriages (indexed as 1839 but I cannot find the year). But this page (page 27) is out of order on the film. It is image 147. Page 26 and 28 of the series appear in proper order as images 29 and 30 on the film.
page 26 (image 29)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61250/images/1197750-00028?pId=901525973
page 27 (this record, image 147)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61250/images/1197750-00146?pId=901525973
1 -
I found another marriage record for Jacob Opatka and Louise in the same churchbook (Seite 100 / image 99) on Sunday 12 p. Trinit. 1844. Not sure if this is the same Jacob Opatka.
Transcription:
Dom. 12 p Trinit.
Der Jüngling Jacob Opatka aus Grammen des verstorbenen Instmannes Johann Opatka in Grammen ältester Sohn mit _? dem Mädchen Louise des Instmannes Martin Dorm__? in Davidshoff ältesten Tochter.
Der Bräutigam ___ ___ ___ ?
1 -
Yes - thank you. Jacob Opalka on "seite 100" is the brother of my 2d great grandfather. He was married three times and also engaged to once which did not result in marriage.
Also, on occasion I work with a genealogist in Germany (Mr. Marc Plessa) who provided me some helpful information regarding a common mistake made when transcribing the t in Opalka and other similar names. A note about the surname Opatka.
Opatka is often incorrectly transcribed using the no longer used polish letter L. In Poland, the L written with a tilde (~) across it appears as a t to people who are unfamiliar with the language and the handwriting of the period in which it was written. If you write properly, this is not a t-dash, - but rather a tilde: ~. The letter L is then pronounced slightly differently, similar to "Opauwlka".
Over time, my family replaced the "ł" with a plain "l". I surmise this applies equally to other polish and german surnames using the same letter.
0 -
@Ulrich Neitzel A thought about why is she called Maria is already Opalka/Opatka?
The word geschieden translates to divorced and abgeschieden I found translations of secluded or departed. Since this is a marriage record perhaps Maria is being identified as "the divorced Maria Opatka - maiden name Buttler".
0 -
@JohnsonGreg Thank you for the feedback. I have captured that in my review notes for this churchbook. There are a total of five pages that are place out of order along with the one you mentioned. :)
And don't worry about being a novice. I still consider myself a novice as I've only been at this for two years. I am fortunate to have grown up learning to speak read and write german and still have living relatives in Germany. However, it is the passion behind our work that drives us to learn. And strategy helps as well. My approach has been to focus on using mostly existing churchbook records and only for people with my last name coming from the region of east Prussia. East prussia has a very storied history. Even Napolean came through the area and thousands of people died as a result. It's amazing to learn about the bigger picture. My strategy also includes using old maps due to the names of towns being spelled differently in a few cases and also trying to identify what the town names are today in Poland. Wikipedia, Genealogy.net, and Meyersgaz.org are very helpful. Enjoy the journey.
0 -
@bellbs The only evidence I have that we are looking at marriages is that at the beginning of the book where the summary of the contents of the book have been written, it indicates "Trauungen" which tranlsates to "Marriages" The words for births and deaths are lined out. Notice the underlined word above the year 1839. It is found on digital page 3.
0 -
The most common meaning of abgeschieden is secluded or lonely (for a location). It could formerly also be used for "deceased", see www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/abgeschieden (a more common word for this meaning would be verschieden; today also antiquated).
I never saw the word abgeschieden for divorced, apart from the fact that a divorce was very rare at that time.
Also, if true, the formulation "mit seiner abgeschiedenen Maria" would indicate that Maria was divorced from Jacob Opalka.
So, still some question marks....
0
