Church records and crossed signals.
Hello!
This would be the baptismal record of the great aunt, however much of the spelling and/or names are wrong.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZRR-79K
Foremost, the items that are "correct" or close are the place, the date, mothers name, fathers last name. I know there is much to manage with all the changes to this area of the world, so I understand it's complex to unravel.
What it should say, in english, if you will.
Mother: Susanna Kardevan , Veterany maiden name.
Father: Gustav Kardevan. (They were married in 1900 at some point--I can not find a record)
I have many questions with my G-Grandmother as her family is a big mystery. A very important one in this case is seeing the actual record image. I figure if the index is here and no obvious note says the physical record is lost, somebody can see it. How do I get to that person? I do travel to Utah on occasion, but an e-mail image in confidence would be much easier.
To add to this riddle, Gustav came to the US in Feb of 1901. Susanna came the US later that year, November of 1901, 3 months after Emilia was born. I have that ships manifests, pictured below. Seem pretty clear to me.
Q: Would Lajos be a formal name for Gustav? Would the church record a "stand in" father for the baptismal ceremony, as Gustav was in the US?
So many questions... thank you in advance for any help.
Comentarios
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For getting a hold of the actual document image for Emilia's birth/baptism, I suggest trying the Family History Library's Lookup Service: https://www.familysearch.org/en/family-history-library/family-history-library-records-look-up-service
Lajos and Gustav are completely unrelated names, and no, the baptism would not have (purposely) recorded someone else as the father, for any reason. It is, however, quite possible that an error was made in the indexing (beyond the ones in the spellings of the surnames), or maybe in the record itself.
(Lajos is the Hungarian form of Louis/Ludwig.)
Given that there's no sign of the baby on Zsuzsanna's passenger list, I assume that Emilia died?
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Thanks! I shall try the record service.
As for the larger story, I will share what I believe and what I've heard from direct family decedents.
Susanna had an older sister, Amelia, born April 1878. They lived in/came from a close village, Kežmarok as I've been told. Bear with me as parents named their children after family so we have some duplicate names.
Baby Amelia stays in Hungary with family (I guess) while Susanna sails to America as mentioned above.
in 1902 Sister Amelia sails to America to live in Philadelphia, I gather with her sister and husband. I believe that she brings Susanna's baby Amelia to the US with her. (I'm still seeking those travel records) Mother Amelia has a child as well, Mary Anna, who is 3 years old, born May 1899. Family legend says that Baby Mary Anna is the illegitimate child of the Royal Habsburg family, who has a castle/residence in the village of Kežmarok.
During 1902/03, Susanna stays in Philadelphia because she is pregnant with her 2nd daughter, Elizabeth. She is born, January 10, 1904. That record is very clear.
In November 1904, Susanna once again travels to the US from Bremen, this time with two children. 1) her 11 month old daughter, Elizabeth. 2) A 6 year old named Maria.
------Now Baby Amelia is only ~3 at this time and could not pass as a 6 year old.
------I guess that Maria is actually Mary, who would have been 5-1/2 at the time which is close to 6. Language might explain the name difference.
Sister Amelia may have gone back to Hungary at some point, but she married in April 1903, in Phila to a man named Ferdinand Frank. I have their marriage license.
I have many census docs and other forms to place these folks in the US, but the travel parts and Hungary records are tough to sort.
A few other tidbits: Mary Anna is listed as a Step Daughter on the 1910 Census, with an emigrate date of 1902. Which is possible. Ferdinand and Sister Amelia were close to Gustav and Susanna as they were the listed God Parents on baby Elizabeth's baptismal certificate in June 1904.
How do I know some of this? Great Aunt Mary used to come to dinner at our house and tell us the hymns she sang when the Titanic sunk. She lived to be 105. Mary also had a family of two daughters, both born in the mid 1920's. The elder, Ruth, will be 99 this July. I had dinner with her last Saturday to try and sleuth out some facts. Baby Amelia was known to me as my Aunt Evelyn. My cousins told me that she disliked her name so she used he middle name, Evelyn. She lived into the late 1970's. Susanna had a third child, a son named Frank. He went to Wharton and lived into the 1970's as well. Frank had a daughter. Her name? Susan, of course. Sadly, Susanna died in 1945 before her older sister, being struck by lightning.
It's a crazy puzzle and I may never know, but I think i'm the luckiest guy alive to get a crack at it. Attached is the 1904 ships log.
Thanks again!
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The 1901 Bremen departure list for Gustav lists his last place of residence as Poprad. The passenger list for Zuzanna lists her last place of residence as Lehna(?) (do you have the link to this record? It's a little blurry on this end, so I'm not sure about the location and I wonder if it might be from 1904 rather than 1901-- see the arrival list in the next paragraph).
There's a 1 November 1904 New York arrival list of Zuza Kardevan (age 23, traveling to meet up with husband Gustav Kardevan at 1349 Hancock St. Philadelphia, PA), Maria (age 6, so born about 1898), and Elisabeth (age 11 months, so born about December 1903). Since Maria and Elisabeth don't show up in Veľký Slavkov, where you found the baptismal record for someone named Emilia, and since Lajos is the Hungarian form of Louis/Ludwig, as Julia wrote, not of Gustav, I don't think it's the right baptismal record. Since Maria was 6 at the end of 1904, this means if she's the first child, Zuza and Gustav likely married in around 1898 rather than 1900. Their last place of residence is listed as Felka (which is in Poprad).
The 1910 Declaration of Intention of Gustav Kardevan lists him as born in Felka, Hungary, on 10 March 1875 and as having departed from Bremen on the vessel Dresden, arriving in New York on 3 February 1901. I found his birth listed on that date in the Felka (now Veľká) Protestant parish; the baptismal record (which is in German) lists him as Gustav, son of Ludvig Karde and Elisabetha Pesko. (See http://www.cisarik.com/0_Velka_Poprad_PV_Szepes_Spis.html for more former names of the town, Veľká: 1786 Fölk, Velka, 1808 Felka, Fölk, Völk, Welka, 1863–1913 Felka, 1920–1945 Veľká)
The 1920 US census lists Agustave [Gustav], Susanna, and one of their daughters, Emilia [born about 1902], as having naturalized in 1915; it states Gustav immigrated in 1900 and Susanna and Emilia in 1902.
The 1910 US census states that Gustivus [Gustav] and Susie married in about 1900 and that Susie had 3 children by 1910. It shows Gustav as having immigrated in 1901 (and as still being an alien in 1910) and Susie and one of the daughters, Amelia, as having immigrated in 1903. US censuses are often not exact in the information they provide, as is shown by the years of immigration being different in the 1910 and 1920 censuses.
The 1945 Pennsylvania death record of Suzanna Kardenvan, wife of Gustav Kardenvan, lists her as born on 10 December 1881 and as a daughter of Franz Klamiek. She died after being struck by lightning. Gustav's 1950 Pennsylvania death record lists the same birth date as his Declaration of Intention, indicating the 1910 record is for the correct Gustav.
Since Gustav's birth was listed in the Felka Protestant parish and his wife and children's last places of residence in the 1904 passenger arrival list was also listed as Felka, chances are that Gustav and Zuzanna were married in Felka (alternatively, they might've married in Zuzanna's home parish and then moved to Gustav's home parish). The FamilySearch Catalog lists marriages for the Felka Protestant parish through February 1899, but I don't see Gustav Karde/Kardevan and Zuzanna's marriage there. And the baptisms are only available through 1895, so we can't check for the baptismal records of their children. However, the Catalog page states "Pôvodné dokumenty boli mikrofilmované v Štátnom oblastnom archíve v Levoči"--that is, the originals are in the State Regional Archive in Levoča. I suggest emailing them and asking for copies of the children's baptismal records (since you have their approximate birth dates) one at a time, in case they have them; https://www.minv.sk/?statny-archiv-v-levoci lists the archive's email address as archiv.po.sal@minv.sk
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The father's surname on the baptism record is Kardevan. It's written on two lines, with no dash or other mark indicating the break. The same thing happens with the first godparent ("Fridrich Karde van") but the second godparent ("Sus. Kardevan") has her name all on one line, making things a bit clearer.
(I find it interesting that they've used the Hungarian spelling of Gusztáv [minus the diacritic], but the third and fourth godparents have a German spelling of a Hungarian surname [Kocsis "coachman, driver"].)
Regarding Mary versus Maria: those were considered to be Exactly The Same Thing. One's in English, the other could be just about any language. (It's Mária "properly" in Hungarian, but then as now, diacritics were treated in North America like typographic bling.) Similarly, Amelia and Emilia were often interchanged (along with Emma, Amalia, Amy, and probably some others I'm forgetting). Likewise for Susan, Susanna, Zsuzsa, Zsuzsanna, and the Slovak spellings thereof.
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Julia,
Thanks! I'm sure I will never know the exact story, but I do wish to trace the family back as much as possible and be accurate. This region of the world, at that time, went through many changes, including language conventions that are beyond my knowledge. Latin in the Catholic church, Hungarian or German in others. Further, for a young lady standing in the passenger crowd trying to share her family details before boarding the ship with people who may or may not appreciate the nuance of her language, it's a wonder just how good all the records are. And I'm thankful for what I have.
Amelia Evelyn Kardevan was indeed born in Hungary as every newer record indicates. And her birthday is September 9, 1901 as listed in many of the same. I'm sure she knows her own birthday. While possible, I'm doubtful of the probability of a second baby, with such similar names and details being born--and baptized--in the same place at the same time.
Computers are great, but indexing and the ability to misread pen and ink script is very likely.
Thank you again for the help. I'm sure I will have more questions if and when I can get a look at the documents.
Another question: would "velka" be a phrase in English to mean "village?"
Do you think it would be possible to link the exact church location from the Baptismal records?
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Charlotte,
Thanks! I'm very certain I have the correct people. I will send an e-mail to the archive office and see what they might offer. They may wish to be paid which I'm fine with so long as I can be clear with communications.
I have no doubt that Gustav had siblings and extended family. The limits of language and not wanting to make a mess keeps me cautious.
Susanna is really the challenge for many reasons, especially my basic understanding of a system of long ago.
For example, here are two church records of a Susanna that I found while blind searching, but NOT my GGrandmother. One in Latin and the other in, I suspect Hungarian. The pages contain so much of the same info. Do you know why such copies were made?
Levoča is but a 6 hour walk from Velka and would not be too far for boy and girl to meet.
Once I get this sorted out, my hope is that I can find Ferdinand Frank, the Husband to Susanna's sister, Amelia. My guess is that many of these people knew of each other prior to coming to the US so long ago.
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I think one's the Catholic register and the other's the Lutheran. (The other possibility is that one's the original and the other is the bishop's or archive's copy, but those would match on more than just one entry.)
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Latin (probably Roman Catholic) register:
16. born February 27, baptized March 9.
Child: Susanna, female, legitimate
Parents: Georgius Kordován, Lutheran, and Maria Dunay Rom. Cath. commoner farmer Lucsivna
Residence: Lucsivna number 41
Godparents: Michael Andrejka and Maria Suliga, commoner farmer, Lutheran, Lucsivna.
Officiant: Andreas Bartal V.D. minister of Batiszfalu.
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Hungarian (likely Lutheran) register:
19. born 1882 Feb. 28th, baptized March 9th.
Child: Zsuzsanna, girl, legitimate
Birthplace: Lucsivna number 41
Officiant: Andor Bartal Luth. pastor
Parents: György Kordován, Lutheran landowner and his wife Mária Dunaj, R.Cath.
Godparents: Mihály Ondrejka farmer and Mária Suliga
Note: per 1868 decree number 33 section 12, herein register extract was sent to the pastor's office of the R.C. church in Sunyava.
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Dvorzsák's gazetteer (https://kt.lib.pte.hu/cgi-bin/kt.cgi?konyvtar/kt03110501/0_0_1_pg_593.html) has it backwards from what the note in the register says: he has Lucsivna as the location of the RC church, with Alsó- and Felső-Sunyava as two of its filiates. (The name of these villages was later Hungarianized to Alsószépfalu and Felsőszépfalu "lower and upper pretty village"; they're now Nižná Šuňava and Vyšná Šuňava. Lucsivna is now Lučivná.)
Dvorzsák says Batiszfalu (also sometimes Batizfalva, now Batizovce) had both a Roman Catholic and a Lutheran church. The latter had as filiates Gerlachfalu, Lucsivna, Menguszfalva, Stóla, and Teplicz, which is nearly exactly what can be seen in the birthplace column, so I'm pretty confident that I have correctly identified the Hungarian register as the Lutheran register from Batiszfalu.
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Veľká is Slovak, which I don't actually know, so take the following with a grain of salt.
Usually, Veľká or Veľký are modifiers in placenames, meaning "big, greater", often contrasting with a nearby Malá X or Malý X "little, lesser X". (-á versus -ý is determined by grammar, but I don't know how.) The Hungarian names of such places will usually start with Nagy- and Kis-, for example Veľká Franková = Nagyfrankvágása and Malá Franková = Kisfrankvágása.
However, there is also Veľká, the Slovak name of a village that has now been absorbed into Poprád. Its Hungarian name was Felka, which I think was probably of German origin: Dvorzsák lists alternate name forms of Fölk, Völk, Welke, and Fulka. (So basically "folk", in English.) It looks to me like this is a case of renaming by sound or spelling rather than by meaning: the Slovak word for "big, greater" looks and sounds similar to the place's original name, so that's the Slovak name it got.
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