Why would a marriage be recorded in 2 different villages/parishes?
I find two marriage records for Joannes Marder and Anna Maria Sybold -- in both Birndorf and Waldkirch. Neither spouse is from either of those places. Those two villages and their home villages of Oberalpfen and Kuchelbach are only a few miles apart.
The record in Waldkirch is a couple lines on a form stating that he is from Oberalpfen and she is from Kuchelbach. In the col. on the left is the word Birndorf (the "Bi" is cut off), with "Maÿ" above it. Looks like there might be a 4 (or 24) before it. And on the far right is "Waldkirch 5 Jun (junii)."
The record in Birndorf is Latin text: "Day 24 May 1758 before ... honest widower Joannes Marder of Oberalpfen, parish of Waldkirch and single maiden Anna Maria Sybold of Kuchelbach matrimonium Yero ... Contra. ... Waldkirch..."
The abstracts (translations) available online from home differ in Marriage Place and Month. The Waldkirch record states Marriage Place is Waldkirch and date is 5 June, whereas the Birndorf record states the Marriage Place is Birndorf and the date is 5 July. Neither of which jive with the Latin text date of May 24.
Birndorf record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q1VH-VRZM
Waldkirch record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QBFH-PDMM
So:
Why records in two places?
What date is correct?
Where did they actually get married?
Thank you very much for any help you can offer.
Elizabeth
Respuestas
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Leaving a comment to put at the top of Discussions
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There may be two couples with the same name. It is difficult to determine based on an indexed record. Indexed records don't give you the full picture of what the document says. The translators in the Community need to see the original document so they can translate it for you. The original record you want appears to be available only in Family History Centers or Libraries. All the best.
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Typically, if a married couple was from two different parishes, the marriage banns (proclamation) were announced prior to the marriage in both churches. The marriage information was frequently entered into the church books in both places, essentially to record the transition of a person baptized in the village but marrying and moving to another place. Since the couple resided in Waldkirch (according to the baptism of their first child there), I suspect that the Birndorf record is an announcement of the marriage in Waldkirch. The earlier dates may be the dates the marriage banns were announced.
Note: All this without being able to view the original records.
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Thank you very much. That makes sense.
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I was able to look at these marriage records at my Family History Center yesterday. Here is a translation of the two marriage records, which should explain things a bit more clearly. The marriage banns were proclaimed in both churches (the bride's and the groom's) on 24 May. The marriage took place in Waldkirch on 5 June. (The July translation was a mistake. June is sometimes spelled "Juni" or "Junÿ", as in this case.
Waldkirch Church Book
1758
Sponsalia [Marriage banns]
24 Maÿ Birndorf
Sponsi [Betrothed couple]
Joannes Marder, h[onestus] Vid[uus] [respectable widower] de Obersalpf
A. Maria Syboldin, P[udica] V[irgo] [chaste virgin] de Kuchelbach
Testes [ Witnesses]
Joseph Gertrÿs
Johannes Bachlin
Nuptia [Marriage]
Waldkirchen, 5 Juny [5th of June]
Birndorf Church Book
1758
Die 24ta Maÿ 1758 Coram eodem Parocho et requisitis Testibus Sponsalia feierer Honestus Viduus Joannes Marder ex Oberalpfen Parochia Waldkirch et Pudica Virgo Anna Maria Syboldin ex Kuchelbach Matrimonium Vero de prosend contraxere in facie Ecclisia Waldkirchÿ Die 5ta Junÿ Anni Currentis.
On 24th May 1758 in the presence of the same pastor and requisite witnesses to the betrothal, the respectable widower John Marder of Oberalpfen, parish of Waldkirch and the chaste virgin Anna Maria Syboldin of Kuchelbach contracted the marriage to be performed in the church at Waldkirch on June 5th of the current year.
I noticed that there was an entry for Johannes Marder in the FamilySearch tree (ID #G3LM-YY3). Using the search feature with the Freiburg Catholic records, I found what I believe is the baptism of Johannes in the nearby village of Weilheim, which indicated that his parents were living in Inglekofen [Indlekofen in Meyersgaz (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10877012). I also found the marriage of his parents in 1714. I attached the source information to both of these events.
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bobgreiner1
Thank you so very much. Taking the trouble to view these records at your Family History Center -- I'm amazed at your kindness. That was incredibly good of you. Thanks also for the complete transcriptions and translations -- also very much appreciated.
Your translations with all the text typed out have helped me decipher some abbreviations and the text in some additional Joannes Marder records -- so thank you very much.
I copied your answers into a Word document, so I don’t lose the information. (I can no longer access my discussions/answers nor most of my previous posts/answers. The problem is worse now than it was a couple months ago.)
I looked at the records you posted to the FamilySearch tree -- also interesting. Given that Joannes is referred to as a widower -- your 1721 birth year makes more sense age-wise than the two baptism records for a Joannes Marder that I had found in Waldkirch in 1738 (parents: Joannes Georg Marder and Maria Kuon) and 1735 (parents: Mathais Marder and Maria Mayer) which would make him only 20 or 23 at his marriage to 22-year-old Anna Maria Sybold.
So now, thanks to you, I can search for more records.
I can’t thank you enough.
Best wishes,
Elizabeth
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