Help with marriage record translation/birth record - Russian/Polish 1820 - Jan Suder and Rozalia Gad
I recently found a scan of the the marriage record for Jan Suder (G4C5-6TG) and Rozalia Gad (G4C5-CML). The marriage took place in Laziska, Opole Lubelskie, Lublin, Poland in 1820. Both groom and bride should have been about 19 years old.
If I remember right, the last time I had help finding this record there was only an index available. I was able to find a scan here: https://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1887/0/1/21/skan/full/fP1MCdwILeZhBKTtX1xMkA
Entry #11
Any help with translating this record would be greatly appreciated (extracting any important information such as exact dates, parents, places, etc.)
In addition, I believe I may have also found the birth record for Rozalia Gad on Lubgens.eu https://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=1057 - The index for the record says that the birth occurred in 1800, Laziska, Opole Lubelskie - which is consistent with the marriage record above. The parents are indexed as Michał Gad and Agata zd. Pachołek. Unfortunately, there is no scan or entry number of the record available. If it is not online at Lubgens.eu, is there another place it could be found? Would it possibly be in the Family History Library? (I know the libraries are currently closed, but I am just curious for future reference). I do currently have access to the BYU family history library in case they have anything.
Any help translating/finding these records would be very much appreciated.
Thanks!
Best Answer
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https://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1887/0/1/21/skan/full/fP1MCdwILeZhBKTtX1xMkA
Marriage Record No. 11, Opole Lubelskie Civil Records Office, dated the 30th January 1820, of Jan Suder, a young man, 18 years old, according to the submitted copy of his birth record, son of deceased Antoni Suder, and living Agnieszka, living in Galicia, he lives with his brother, Kasper Suder, in village Koszorow, and of Rozalia Gad (here written diminutive Gadzianka, like Johny, only applicable to surname), a single young lady, 19 years old, according to the submitted copy of her birth record, daughter of deceased Michal Gad and living Agata, born Pacholak, a tenant farmer in village Laziska, she lives with her mother. The parties ask us to proceed with the marriage ceremony, which was preceded by marriage banns published on the door of this County Office. There were no impediments raised. After reading the 6th Section of the Napoleon Code about Marriage, we asked the future spouses if such was their will to be united in marriage, and each one of them responded individually that that is what they wanted, we therefore pronounce in the name of law that Jan Suder, a young man, and Rozalia Gad (Gadzianka), a single young lady, are united in marriage, and that the was written and read in the presence of witnesses: Kasper Suder, 33 years old, brother of the groom, Woyciech Nowak, 42 years old, both from village Koszorow, and in the presence of farmers Jan Ciepluch, 38 years old, and Tomasz Czerniewski, 42 years old, from Laziska. This record was read and signed by Erazm Sokolowski, Rector of Opole Civil Records Office.
Sorry, but it looks like all the birth records from Laziska which we have in FHL, also in familysearch.org. – Search – Images - Laziska are for years beginning in 1810. As you have already seen in lubgens.eu the birth indexed information is as follows: Birth Record, Parish Opole Lubelskie, of Rozalia Gad, born in Laziska, year 1800, daughter of Michal and Agata, born Pacholek, married couple Gad. Unfortunately, there is no scan of this birth record in Polish State Archives either, szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl - Maybe after May 31st, the total transition to new szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl there could be a chance we could find it. Otherwise, this record may be in Lublin Archdiocese Archives and difficult to obtain.
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Answers
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Thank you so much, that is very helpful! I noticed the record said Jan Suder was living in "villiage Koszorow" - do you think that would be in Masovia or Kielce? Or maybe there isn't any way to tell? That might mean it is impossible to tell which part of Galicia his mother is from/living in (whether the Polish, Austrian, or Ukranian part?)
As for Rozalia's birth record, I did look and see that it wasn't in the library. Yes, if you could help me look for the record after May 31st that would be wonderful! If it is only in the archives in Lublin, is there a chance that in the future it could eventually make its way online?
Again, thanks so much for your help!
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I am not sure if you already have it, otherwise, please note that in geneszukacz.genealodzy.pl if you enter Suder, you will find death records in Parish Opole Lubelskie of Antonina Suder and Pawel Suder, both children of Jan and Rozalia, born Gad, married couple Suder. It looks like in the same Geneszukacz search, you can see death of Rozalia Suder, 1 year old, who died in Kosiorow. Koszorow, as given as place of residence of Jan Suder and his brother, is about 60 miles from Opole Lubelskie. Kosiorow, where another Suder family (Kacper, his brother) lived is about 10 km or 6 miles north from Opole. The recorder must have misheard the name and it is likely that Suder brothers lived in Kosiorow, but afterwards, Jan Suder and Rozalia lived in in Opole, where they had their family, while Kacper Suder lived in Kosiorow. Please correct the name of place to Kosiorow in the translation. The pronunciation is very similar and the recorder wrote Koszorow instead of Kosiorow.
You may find those places if you use pilot.pl after you X the ads and eliminate “H” ads for hotels by clicking on “ukryj” to hide next to “hotele” box on the right. Then enter town/village in the top box (you may use English with Chrome, but it also translates some names of places) click on the town, then move mouse to another town without pressing on it, you will have distance in kilometers in the little red box at the bottom of the right corner.
I was not able to find the parents of Jan, Antoni and Agnieszka in Galicia (malopolskie, podkarpackie) indexed records of geneszukacz.pl
You may also contact lubgens.eu people and ask if they would help you to get the copy of the birth record of Rozalia Gad, which they indexed. It may be for a fee, and please offer to pay. Sometimes they are kind enough to do it.
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Thank you for that information! Yes I went ahead and changed it to Kosiorow. I do have Pawel Suder's (GZQK-CSS) information in familysearch (including birth and death) but I have not yet found information on Antonina. I see her death record on Geneteka for 1822, Entry #31 Opole Lubelskie, but when you look at the scan it doesn't appear to be there? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-YMJK-Y?cc=1407440 - Or maybe I'm just not seeing it? If you do happen to find it then I would also appreciate a translation of that too.
I do also see a Kacper Suder in Opole Lubelskie who was married to a Marianna Dzien. Is that the same Kacper you mentioned or a different one? It looks like they had a daughter named Rozalia who died in 1819 and a daughter Marianna who died in 1827 (Opole Lubelskie) - looking at that they must be the same?
That is unfortunate about Jan's parents. Would there be any other way to look for them or would it be best to wait?
And as for Rozalia's birth record, would I have to send the Lubgens people a message in Polish? Also, do you know about how much I should offer them to look for her record? (about how much it would cost?)
Also, I may have found Jan Suder's death record here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-RH41-QR?i=100&cc=1867931&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQL9L-1ZQD (Entry #11)
The death is indexed as 3 February, 1864, Urzedow, Krasnik, Lublin, Poland - he was 70 years old. His son Jozef was married the 18 Nov 1863 in Urzedow, Krasnik (the same place). But this may not be the correct death record because Jan was stated as dead in Jozef's marriage - which occurred several months before this death. and if Jan really was 70 when he died, he would have been born about 1794 - but from Jan and Rozalias marriage, we know or Jan was born about 1802.
It might not be the right record, but I thought it might be worth looking at, considering how Suder is an uncommon name.
There is also this death record of a Jan Suder (entry 22) https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/29/331/0/3/196/skan/full/qXhROK2lSnsXNqQlYqjaFQ - which takes place at a possible time in 1852 (after his son Jozef was born and before his marriage) but it is a bit far away in the Krakow Szczepan Parish, so it would be unlikely in my guess. But again, thought would be worth looking at.
That was kind of a lot, I can ask these questions again later so it is not so overwhelming, but if you want to look over them over time I would appreciate it.
Thanks again for all your help ❤️
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You can write in English to lubgens.eu (Kontakt z administratorem bazy - contact with the administrator of the site). Just say you will be glad to pay for the scan of the record. Sometimes they do not even charge for it, it may be up to $20.00.
I have found and translated the birth and death records of the Suder family of Jan and Rozalia. I was not able to find her death record. Please note that the records are written in Parishes, with witnesses, who are not related to this family. Consequently, I have not included them in the translation.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1887/0/1/9/skan/full/_vBcWIMUk3IdJcn80fU6RA
Birth Record No. 242, Opole Lubelskie Parish, of Antonina Suder, born in Laziska, House No. 8, on the 14th November 1820, daughter of Jan Suder, a farmer from Laziska, 26 years old, and of his wife, Rozalia, born Gad, 19 years old.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-YMJX-H?i=137&cc=1407440
FHL Micr. 004677326 Image 138 of 208
Death Record No. 31, Opole Lubelskie Parish, of Antonina Suder (Suderowna=daughter of Suder), who died in Laziska, House No. 5, on the 14th April 1822, lived one year, daughter of Jan Suder and of his wife, Rozalia, born Gad (Gadzianka = diminutive for daughter of Gad). Died due to convulsions.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1887/0/2.4/41/skan/full/olqSSNOVjah8uRDNCycMug
Birth Record No. 135, Opole Lubelskie Parish, of Pawel Suder, born in Niedzwiada on the 25th June 1826, birth reported on the 26th June 1826, son of Jan Sudor, an inn keeper in Niedzwiada, 28 years old, and of his wife, Rozalia, born Gad, 24 years old.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-YMJW-2?i=184&cc=1407440
FHL Micr. 004666326 Image 185,
Death Record No. 168, Opole Lubelskie Parish, of Pawel Suder, who died in Kosiorow, House No. 21, on the 19th August 1826, lived 7 weeks, son of Jan Sudor and his wife, Rozalia, born Gad. Died due to diarrhea.
FHL Image 101 of 450
Death Record No. 11, Urzedow Parish, of Jan Suder, who died in Majdan Rudlinski on the 3rd February 1864, lived 70 years, a widower, son of parents unknown to those reporting the death.
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Thank you again, that is very helpful!
I will see if I can write to the Lubgens administrator soon.
As for Jan Suder, is it possible that the other records got some of his information wrong/off?
I just know that his marriage record said he was 18 in 1820 (which puts his birth year at about 1802): "dated the 30th January 1820, of Jan Suder, a young man, 18 years old,"
In his daughter Antonina's birth record it says: "born in Laziska, House No. 8, on the 14th November 1820, daughter of Jan Suder, a farmer from Laziska, 26 years old, (which puts his birth year at about 1794).
In his son's marriage record it says: "dated 18th November, 1863, of Jozef Suder, a bachelor, 21 years old, son of deceased Jan and living Rozalia, married couple Suder, living in Stary Majdan"
Then in the death record it says: "Jan Suder, who died in Majdan Rudlinski on the 3rd February 1864, lived 70 years, a widower, (which puts his birth year at about 1794)
The imformation of Jan's age in his death record lines up with what is in Antonina's death record, but at the same time, he was declared as dead in his son's marriage record 3 months before February 1864. In addition, Rozalia was stated as living in that marriage record, but in Jan's death record it states he is a widower (maybe the people recording that marriage record got mixed up with which parent was living and which was dead?). Jan and Rozalia's ages in their 1820 marriage record are also not consistent with later records, but the others still line up.
I guess I just want to make sure that the death record of Jan Suder we found is really him; considering how some of the information across several of his records doesn't line up with complete accuracy. Is it normal for things like this to be off sometimes? Or do you think I might have the wrong person?
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Please check on google.com or wikipedia history of Poland, as about1860's-1868 Russian armies went through Polish lands, taking many people to Siberia, enforcing Russian language as official language for all the records. It may be possible that this family got separated, as Jan Suder in Majdan Radlinski was about 14 miles from Opole, while Jozef and Rozalia, could have been forced to move about 60 miles from Opole Lubelskie to Stary Majdan, 60 miles distance.
We will need to validate the birth of Jozef Suder, and his parents. If you need me to translate the other records you found, please give me their URL addresses.
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Ok, that is interesting - and makes sense. I will have to do some more research about that. For now though, do you think it would be wise to attach that death record we found to Jan Suder? I can easily do it, I'm just wondering if I should.
I do have quite a few records/links I have found ready to go. Would it be easier for you if I sent them to your email or if I posted them here? I don't have to send them all at once.
Again, thank you for your willingness to help - it means a lot
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Please hold off with putting your Jan Suder into your familysearch tree, until we can validate with other documents that it is him. Most likely it is him, but just in case. Let's not leave any stones unturned. With this Community we cannot send scans of records, and it may be helpful for you to contact me directly using my email address mhe278@yahoo.com I am glad to assist you with translation.
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