John Bruynseels (b c1876) and Alice EE Watkins (b 1896) - desperately seeking info
My great-great aunt, Alice Edith Esther Watkins married whom I believe to be a Belgian refugee in Blaenavon, Monmouthshire on 20 Oct 1915. His name on the marriage register is John Bruynseels.
They left for Belgium and that is the extent of my knowledge
Answers
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For general information on research in Belgium, you might want to check the wiki: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Belgium_Research_Tips_and_Strategies
Now what you are looking for (I suppose), is his birth certificate.
However, we do not have enough information to find this record, mainly we need his birth town.
The name Bruynseels is present in Belgium, mainly in the southern part of Antwerp (province), east of Mechelen.
Did you find any indication about where he was born, did you ask every relative that could know where they went?
How do you know they left to Belgium and not somewhere else?
One last remark: John is not a very Belgian name, either he translated from Jan or Johannes or he changed his name completely.
If you've added him to the familysearch tree, feel free to link it or give the ID.
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Thank you for your reply.
The only person who could remember Alice was my late grandmother who did mention Antwerp. I also know from the marriage certificate that John’s father’s name was Joseph. There is no one left to ask. Alice did return from Belgium in 1939 for her mother, my 2 x great-grandmother’s funeral - my grandmother (d 2010) could remember this
The GRO record spells it Brongnseels
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Ok, that helps a lot. Antwerp could be the city, the area around the city or the province.
How certain are you about the birth year, is it based on the age read in the marriage register or is it information from your grandmother?
I've looked in Antwerp between 1871 and 1880, there were 3 people called Jan/Joannes.
The first one was the son of Carolus.
The second one was the son of Joseph, but he died in 1884.
The last one was the son of Jacobus Josephus and could be a match, maybe.
He was called Joannes Baptista Bruynseels, born 16 Sep 1877, was the son of Jacobus Josephus and Maria Catharina ... Fockendeyn? Not sure about the last name.
You can find the record here (second on the right): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZPQ-J3N?i=102&wc=Q82R-T5C:1007785401,1007994401&cc=2138481
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Strange age difference between the partners,..if we assume the birthdate for the husband would be correct,, probably the husband was a WW1 refugee given the year and location,(1915),and should be 39 at that moment?..or am i wrong?
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Thiebout, I took your lead on Southern Antwerp,and using the Belgisch Rijksarchief
(personen) prompt for Joseph Bruynseels -the first 3 entry's are interesting, altough
this Joseph is probably not the father. But if i set the prompt for Bruynseels and
actes de naissances,a pattern shows for Hulshout/and some other lower parts of Antwerp.
I also found a Bruynseels parenteel on web, that has a lot of Hulshout and some other locations of intrest,the area of the 2 Nete's,and this was also apparent in the Belgisch Rijksarchief.
So, Can you take a look at this entry,the location is Hulshout,187_9_! (not 76) and this
age difference would make him a better match for his wife.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XZS6-GB?i=899&cc=2138481&cat=86322
(beslaat twee paginas.) Opmerkelijk de vader is niet Joseph maar Ludovien?
and he himself is Joannes Joseph........so Joseph could easily be mistaken as name of the father...
The father and mother as well as the birthlocation for the mother is in this parenteel
The other years in the Hulshout catalogue are full of Bruynseels , but no John/Joannes in 76
http://www.stamboomvansantvoort.be/P_BRUYNSEELS.html
I used command-F to search for the names and locations.
Adrie
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Belgium had Population Registers that were effectively "live" censuses. But unfortunately many are not online and they were kept at a local level so it's hard to use them without a precise location. Also there may be problems with privacy- if any person (e.g. their children) in the same register or page was born after 1 Jan 1921, it is likely that the whole register or page will be not available for public browsing.
Have you tried looking for immigration records into the UK? I think Ancestry.com has some of these records.
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Thank you, once again ... I am unsure whether they had children or not. Are there birth records that list the father and mother's maiden name, as in the UK?
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You are correct ... my grandmother did say to me that her husband was significantly older than Alice
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To have some indication about the location, i searched at the site of the Museum van de Krijgskunst at Brussels, as they have military files from the old days.They do not show them online, but they show the file-numbers (if they have any)
This is the link, if there go to documentatiecentrum in the headers,will unfold drop down-menu, then select Persoonlijke militaire dossiers and fill in Bruynseels at familienaam
and Joseph at given name.
Interesting to see that they all are in the province of Antwerp,one in Hulshout,at least two interred as political prisoner.They do not have the correct birthyear for the possible father.
It is an interesting site to use sometimes.
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Birth records until 1920 (100 years ago last January) are public, but in after 1915 they are not online and you must contact the municipal or provincial archive. So you would need to know where they lived. Belgium birth records do record full and maiden names of both parents. They sometimes also record ages of the parents.
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My reason to raise the subject has to do with the profile of the Belgian refugees during the war.A great many lot of them fled the scene on the mainland of Europe, to either avoid getting drafted for military service;
or avoiding to be put to forced labour in Germany by the Germans.
These refugees are often more easy to find, as there are some archives as well in the Uk and Europe.But John is over the age for military enlistment,and as the year of marriage says 1915,he must have been there(Uk) very early in the war or before it,making it not likely that he was a deserter also.
...
Richard, the place of marriage you mentioned, would that also be the place of residence for the couple, and have you any idea about the birthplace of Alice.?
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Alice was born in Woolaston, Gloucestershire, England
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I found a possible John Bruynseels on the Ellis island records , born in Antwerp and 48 yrs of age at arrival in the Usa,so born in 1877, even the adress is in the line.
He arrived there in 1925.
they also have probably the correct Alice as they have one,born in 1896
arrived in 1929 , marital status unknown
Would you, for your conv.. make an account(free of charge there) and
typ them at the prompt,hoover over the i and they will show.
If you do not find them i will send the links.
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Thank you, Adrien .. which site should I register with?
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Ah, simply go to Ellis Island records, and make a simple login and password, login and ..
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This is the site.You can enter the name directly, after some attempts and results returning the interface will ask you to make a login.You will get a prompt for you e-mail adress,and asked to make a password.That will be sent to your email/and activated there by clicking on it.Once that is done, set "remember me", you will automatic login in the future. The site is here=> (cut copy paste to the prompt)
https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/
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If for any reason,you have difficulties to make a login or to find the record, I will help you to acces them via screendumps
that i can make and relay to your email, or here.
Did some read-in around the towns you mentioned,also found Florence(picture) the elder sister.I found no further evidence of Alice in Belgium, not in the register of naturalisations, nor in foreigners databases, and much to my surprise i do not find her as a spouse of any Bruynseels.What puzzles me the most, is that we in Belgium seem to be flooded with the name Watkins! (a great many lot of them); but no trace of any Alice...(Belgisch Rijksarchief)..along this line of query, also to my surprise, found several Bruynseels(!) naturally born in England, evenso with the name John.So that was a dead end.
I also used this, good read, nice story's along the line.Part of your hand?
https://forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?mode=thread&id=18922
Adrie
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Ha - that is me on the FoD site ... the John Bruynseels entering the US in 1925 appears to have a wife called Lucie aged 44
Mystifying
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Yes, i did see it, either it is not him, or he divorced Alice.Btw , did you also find the Alice with the correct birth year?..
He also mentions his occupation as cigarmaker. The tobacco-industry in Flanders and the Wallon part of Belgium was completely destroyed after the great war.Could be a false flag tough,if immigrants knew there was demand for certain professions,...
One of the difficult corners here , as well in Belgium as The Netherlands, is that when you leave
in an emigration wave, you are written out of the censusregisters.But some do not notify the census,
or the municipality, or the taxman.
The search is not over i guess.Feel free to add info.
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As the adress was in the manifest at the Ellis Islands records, for John Bruynseels as
Dambruggestraat Antwerp, it shows to be consistent with the town of Borgerhout
in Antwerp, so i went to the catalogue for Borgerhout=>
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GPD6-JRF?i=546&cc=2138481&cat=688947
second entry at geboorte akte, left hand page.His full name is Joannes(John) Gregorius Adolphus Bruynseels (written as Bruijnseels,classic to use both spellings)
The year of birth is 1877 June the seventh.As an aside, after making the string Bruynseels/cigarmaker, in Flemish sigarenmaker,i found many hits , indicating the Fam Bruynseels were members of a cigarmaking guild.So the profession is probably genuine.
I made no progress with Alice what so ever,she seems very absent,
like Janet C Watkins seems absent in the picture.
If you want a translation for the birtcertificate, just ask.
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This document makes me conclude you do not have the correct John Bruynseels.
I was already doubting the match. Richards grandmother talked about him being from Belgium, but never mentioned they moved to the US. Also, John would have moved to the US, but leave his family behind. This already seemed unlikely to me, but now the fathers are different. (Adrianus instead of Joseph) I don't think you have a match.
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Yes, more often traces go lost in the forest.You are correct, Thiebout,but it would have been a mistake not to trace him down to his ancestors and location, as many relatives cluster together; and in the past, did not travel great distances regularly.And , moreover
as his adress was availiable......etc.etc..
During the snow yesterday, i combined Borgerhout and Alice Bruynseels in a searchterm.
One specific hit at Borgerhout.But it does not show this one as a possible daughter, altough the birthyear would fit a possible Alice Bruynseels as mother. but then again,ANY other mother is possible. Correct timeframe.(does not name parents)
http://www.uitvaartenboelens.be/overlijdensbericht.php?id=686
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It most definitely was not a mistake, we were able to disconfirm a match.
And you immediately found a new lead. Although, I have no idea how to check this one. (edit: I forgot the "no")
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Thank you for your continued work on this mystery .. it is appreciated. It would help if I spoke the language lol
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Impossible to check it out, as our target Alice is last seen around 1940, and she must have died later on.She will not be in the public domain.
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Sometimes, the only gain of the query are the story's we can harvest along the way, along with some historical settings
and geografical surroundings. I had no idea about Woolaston or Blaernafon 2 days ago, now i have read the narrative about mining slate and charcoal.The basic idea is never to abandon this endevour. I have been searching for one of my ancestors for 38 yrs, not only online,but with writing letters to America, buying books and buying census cd-rom's from some states in America,and i also searched for him literally on cemetaries and churchyards , to eventually find him and his birthouse 15 min from my house here(lol!)
Back to the case, This Welsh language and names for towns and stuff, that is really scary!, you probably master that?
Flemish and Dutch is not so difficult ; but google translate is a good alternative, i use it daily.
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Well, learning any language take quite some effort, but you don't actually have to learn Dutch to read the record.
To speak a language for every day use you need to learn about 2000 words. It is possible to extract the most essential information by only knowing a few 100 words. I've done it with Latin.
Google translate can fail with dialects and changed spellings, I'd use it in combination with a genealogical word list. e.g. https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Dutch_Genealogical_Word_List
The word list also works better if you can only read part of the word, just search (control + F) the word list.
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