Would like to obtain copy of ORIGINAL christening document. Have name, birth date (no YEAR), and lo
John JAMES (FS ID# KJ54-FLT)
in 2006, another researcher performed lookups for me. In email, cited christening record Jul 31 (NO YEAR) in Bettws, Glamorgan, Wales for John JAMES with parents John and Catherine (no surnames for either parents).
Sources CONFLICT regarding his YEAR of christening (1786 vs 1796) -- a 10 year span.
I'd like to view the original record so I can learn if it is my ancestor's christening record, correct christening date and place, and names of parents.
I tried Find My Past, Ancestry, and FamilySearch with no luck
He drowned January 1834 in a river at age 48, but newspaper articles and other sources can contain typing or other errors.
Thus, due to the discrepancies in sources, would like to view the ORIGINAL christening document of the John JAMES christened in Bettws, Glamorgan, Wales on July 31 (unknown year).
Thanks!
Answers
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There is Bettws in Bridgend , Glamorgan but there is also one in Newport so Back then would be Monmouthshire ,There is also Betws in Carmarthenshire ,so question whom/where did he marry and where did he drown .
I found this one on Freereg which is in Bettws Tir Iaril know as Bettws, Bridgend Field Value County Glamorgan Place Betws Tir Iarll Church name St David Register entry number Birth date Baptism date 19 Nov 1789 Person forename John Person sex M Father forename David Mother forename Mary Father surname JAMES Mother surname Person abode Father occupation Notes Transcribed by Pam Crompton File line numbe r334
Link to Freereg https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58182c49e93790ec8bdb1fc5/john-james-baptism-glamorgan-betws-tir-iarll-1789-11-19?locale=en
But on further looking at FS tree and ancestry Trees I do not think this person is correct so who is your interest is it William P James b 1821 ? married a Mary Rees /Reese in ?
Regards Pam
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Found the following via the online Cambrian Index:
DEATHS BY DROWNING
On the night of Monday last, Mr. John James, of Lety Brongi, one of the Chief Constables of the Hundred of Newcastle, in this county, was drowned in the Llynfi river, near a bridge called Pont-rhyd-y-Keefe. He had been attending the funeral of a neighbouring farmer, at Llangonoyd, and had stayed drinking at a public house there to rather a late hour, when upon his journey
homewards in the dark, he fell in the river. It is supposed that he fell off his horse when crossing the bridge, which is of wood.
His standardized death place is "Pont Rhyd-y-cyff, Glamorgan, Wales, United Kingdom".
On a map of Wales, I found two locations named Lletty Brongu. Appears one is a farm and the other is a community.
Not sure the following is correct:
Llety Brongi vs Lletty Brongu
Llynfi River (appears same on map)
Pont-rhyd-y-Keefe vs Pont Rhyd-y-cyff
Llangonoyd vs Llangynwyd
Thank you for any help you can provide.
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He is buried in St. Mary's Cemetery at Briton Ferry, Glamorgan, Wales.
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The Glamorgan Baptism Index shows the year of christening as 1796 for John James son of John and Catherine, parish abbreviation, BTTWS.
You will need to check to verify that the abbreviation BTTWS is for Bettws or another parish. I did not find the John James christening in 1796 in the parish register or Bishop's Transcript. I did not do a page by page check so that still should be done. I would be very interested in verifying that the parish abbreviation is for Bettws [Betws Tir Iarll].
The 1796 christening is quite a ways off from the birth year reported in the newspaper. The Glamorgan baptism index is the most complete index so I suggest that you check it for a John born closer to 1784. Remember that nonconformist records may have the record you really need. Also remember to consider patronymics before 1800.
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I basically asked this question on 20 December to 2008 r but shall expand and ask again .
Who is your 'interest' Ancestor in this family as I do not see a baptism for
L7P7-5PP Willliam P James c 1821 in Briton Ferry and can not see one among the 25 Sources attached to him .
I am willing to help you ,I live in Wales my husband has many Welsh ancestors I have researched and have Parish records for .
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I was able to check the parish register of Betws Tir Iarll and found the entry. If you are signed in to FamilySearch, you might be able to view it. It is on film 4188560 image 22. The entry is written in a space under the burials from 1792-1795 and not with the other christenings. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6L46-SX?mode=g&cat=1547541
In case you can't view it, it reads, "John, son of John James by Catherine his wife was Baptized July 31st 1794 (or 1796--there are two numbers written on top of each other, but the 9 is quite clear) and born the 19th of this Instant at (something I can't quite make out, maybe Tuntone?) Langinor Parish: 1794". 1801 is written above the last 1794 and 7 underneath as if someone was subtracting the two numbers.
There is Llangeinor parish east of Bettws/Betws Tir Iarll and a Tyn Ton in Llnageinor.
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I am new to "groups" and although I had checked for responses to my query, I did not view the responses. I have now corrected that so I receive a daily digest. My apology and thank you for your offer to help.
I have added a document to FamilySearch at the below link (since it is too much to post here). Hopefully, this document will explain why my family beileves the parents of William P. JAMES (1821-1891) are John JAMES and Jane LAWRENCE:
www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/L7P7-5PP
We have viewed the films for the Briton Ferry parish records, however, have no access to the BT's.
Thank you for ANY help you can provide.
www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/L7P7-5PP
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I sent an email to the secretary of the Glamorgan Historical Society regarding the abbreviation "BTTWS" on the CD, and received the following response:
"There are a number of places called Bettws in Wales, but we have found Bettws Tir Arll covering the area of Llangynwyd, Bettws, Margam and Kenfig in Glamorgan."
Pamela Sullivan_1 and @Kori Robbins .
Thank you!
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Thank you for your response. I am trying to find the parents of William P. James (FSID L7P7-5PP). I have found him in all available records in the United States.
Last evening, I posted a new document to memories at the following link:
www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/L7P7-5PP
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Thank you for your response. This is the first experience researching pre-1800.
I am AMAZED that you can read that film! I went to the link that you provided and just can NOT view or read same. I even took a screen shot and then put the document into Photoshop so I could try adjusting various ways. No luck on my part. Thus, I appreciate your writing it out for me.
I am a bit puzzled since John JAMES died 1834 at age 48 (1) per newspaper article, (2) parish burial record, (3) Briton Ferry monument inscriptions, and (4) National Burial Index. Thus, expected to see born 1786. Also, his wife was born 1786.
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I'm glad I could help! Do you have other evidence that his parents were John and Catherine? Maybe this entry is not your ancestor, just someone with the same name.
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No christening record for William P. JAMES (L7P7-5PP) has been found.
I would appreciate your opinion regarding a new document posted in "Memories" of William P. JAMES (L7P7-5PP).
This document explains why we believe John JAMES (KJ54-FLT) and Joan LAWRENCE (KJ5W-1KB) are parents of William P. JAMES L7P7-5PP. The document is titled, "JAMES, William P. - Comparing Oral Traditions to Facts".
I am **NOT** confident that the parents of John JAMES (KJ54-FLT) are the John and Catherine in Bettws for the following reasons:
John JAMES (KJ54-FLT) died 1834 at age 48 (1834 - 48 = 1786);
Thus, the Bettws christening date (1796) is off by 10 years;
Would he be christened at age 10?
Additionally, his wife, Joan Jennett LAWRENCE, was born 1786.
The Glamorgan Historical Society did some lookups for me and suggested a possible connection to John and Catherine. I have entered all of those communications into a document, and then posted "Memories" of John JAMES KJ54-FLT.
Thank you.
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No christening record for William P. JAMES (L7P7-5PP) has been found.
I would appreciate your opinion regarding a new document posted in "Memories" of William P. JAMES (L7P7-5PP).
This document explains why we believe John JAMES (KJ54-FLT) and Joan LAWRENCE (KJ5W-1KB) are parents of William P. JAMES L7P7-5PP. The document is titled, "JAMES, William P. - Comparing Oral Traditions to Facts".
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I shall this week take a further look and see what I can find for you
Stay safe Pam
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UPDATE - PLEASE READ
I've created a document to explain WHY we cannot find a christening record for my ancestor, William P. JAMES L7P7-5PP.
I would appreciate it if several persons would read the (new) document titled, "JAMES, William P. - Comparing Oral Traditions to Facts.pdf” and provide feedback of same.
Thank you.
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@Kori Robbins
I need to pause and re-evaluate:
- I cannot find a christening record for William P. JAMES L7P7-5PP;
- I have created a new document explaining why we believe his parents are John JAMES KJ54-FLT and Joan Jennett LAWRENCE KJ5W-1KB;
- The new document is posted in "Memories" for William P. JAMES L7P7-5PP, and is titled "JAMES, William P. - Comparing Oral Traditions to Facts.pdf";
- I would GREATLY appreciate your thoughts on this new document;
- I have re-read information given to me years ago from another researcher, and I have subsequently removed the following couple as the parents of John JAMES KJ54-FLT:
John (G4Z9-YRX) - father;
Catherine (G4ZS-M9C) - mother
_______________________________________
We need to find a christening record showing the parents of John JAMES KJ54-FLT.
John JAMES KJ54-FLT died 1834 at age 48 = birth estimated 1786.
Thus, the christening record in Bettws Parish (with the above removed parents) is off by 10 years (1786 vs 1796).
We have multiple events recorded for John JAMES KJ54-FLT in Briton Ferry, however, we do NOT know where he was christened.
We cannot ASSUME that his death place, LLety Brongu, Glamorgan, Wales (Bettws parish), is also the place where he was christened. (Meaning that we cannot assume that he returned to the place of his birth after his wife died). We must keep looking.
At the time of his death, John JAMES KJ54-FLT was the chief constable of the Hundred of New Castle. Thus, I assume he had to travel. Did he live in Llety Brongu because the location was convenient? I don't know.
I assume patronymics could be in play during this time period.
Where to go from here?
I apologize, but I still don't quite understand WHO receives these additional replies: (1) all persons in the group or (2) the few who have replied to my original post.
Thanks for any help you can give.
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I should have some time to look at this later in the week. Patronymics very likely could be in play here.
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I have seen all that is added for him on FS Tree but do not see where the connection is to John James & Joan Lawrence is .
The oral conjecture is with no proof as in Records /Sources ,as to his suggested birth date well looking through the census it went up and down as to his age .Is there not a death cert for him that's been missed ?
I have been all through the Welsh records for the area but there is not a William born to a John & Joan .
His first child was named Thomas ,it is usual in UK naming systems to name the first boy after a parent at that time ?
I am off to noddy land and shall get back when I find any other thoughts or other .
Regards Pam
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@Pamela Sullivan_1
Thanks very much for your reply.
1. Please read the new document explaining why we believe parents of William P. JAMES (L7P7-5PP) are John JAMES (KJ54-FLT) and Joan Jennett LAWRENCE (KJ5W-1KB).
2. Naturalization - William P. JAMES would have provided his own information (including his age) in his 1844 naturalization document. Thus, this information (age) would be more accurate than U.S. Census records. Copy of original naturalization document is found in "Memories".
3. Unlike the United Kingdom, the U.S. Census enumerations were not made on the same day throughout the country;
4. The U.S. Census enumeration dates varied (for his family/location):
U. S. 1850 Census - 5 November 1850;
U. S. 1860 Census - 6 July 1860;
U. S. 1870 Census - 11 June 1870
U. S. 1880 Census - 15 June 1880
U. S. 1890 Census - census destroyed (fire, water, mildew)
U. S. 1900 Census - not living at time of this census.
5. In the United States Census, it is not unusual to see variation in ages from census year to census year. This is probably due to the census questions being answered by persons who were not the head of household or his wife. Children and neighbors also provided the answers to census questions. Additionally, this area had a large variety of immigrant nationalities and accents that could easily be misunderstood;
6. William P. JAMES and Mary REES had 15 children;
7. William P. JAMES was a coal miner, and Mary REES(E) was a midwife who also went to care for men in mine accidents (day and/or night). Per her obituary and newspaper articles, Mary was one of two midwives in the area, and she alone delivered more than 5,000 babies. She was not a stay-at-home mother who was available to answer the census questions!
8. Death certificates in Pennsylvania did not begin until 1906 (William P. JAMES died 1891);
9. 1891 newspaper obituary of William P. JAMES was very generic and provided no clues other than age 70. Photograph of his headstone appears in "Memories". His headstone also reads age 70, but gives no date of birth;
10. His in-laws were from South Wales: Thomas J. REES (father-in-law) and John REES (grandfather-in-law). Thus, this family did not follow the naming pattern;
I assume William P's first son, Thomas JAMES (my direct ancestor) was named after Thomas J. REES;
11. I have written letters to all Welsh churches in the area where William P. JAMES lived (Edwardsville, Luzerne County, Pennsylvania), and found no information. Church where his wife and children attended are known, and the minister responded that the church building has experienced both fires and floods over the years. Location of records, if any exist, are unknown to the minister;
12. No mortuary records for this time period have been found;
13. My JAMES grandparents traveled from Utah to Pennsylvania via train about 1919-1923 (and later years) in order to meet and interview JAMES and REESE relatives, including Eli Reese JAMES, son of William P. JAMES. Information collected during these trips are the source(s) of information found in "oral traditions";
14. Newspaper searches have been made in all available years. No helpful news articles have been found. (His well-known widow made the news when she cut down her peach tree, and when ill, the women in several neighboring communities took up a collection and made a deposit in her bank account);
Thus, I feel all U.S. sources have been exhausted.
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Thank you for your kind offers of assistance!!
New document regarding William P. James (1821-1891) can be found at the following link:
www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/L7P7-5PP
William P's father drowned while crossing a stream of water on a horse (in Wales).
ALL christenings performed in Wales will **NOT** be found in parish registers.
Following Hardwicke's Act of 1753, all marriages between 1754 and 1837, (except for the Quakers and the Jews) had to take place within the established church - even if they were of nonconformist denomination. There was NO enforcement on baptisms, therefore most non-conformist baptisms will **NOT** appear in the parish records.
Briton Ferry had many chapels or non-conformist churches:
www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/BritonFerry/Chapels
My grandparents (about 1929) interviewed the sons of William P. JAMES and learned several clues about William P's background. The John JAMES family of Briton Ferry fits the information. Importantly, John JAMES drowned while crossing at stream of water on a horse, AND had children named John and Margaret born in the correct time period.
Children of John JAMES and Joan LAWRENCE were christening in the Church of England . . . but *NOT* William P. JAMES. I have narrowed his date of birth to a 6-day period (June 31 to 5 August 1821). His mother died shortly after his birth. She died and was buried on a Sunday . . . a very busy day for the clergyman! Additionally, the newborn infant (plus his siblings) needed care.
Thus, (1) his christening may have been performed, but not recorded or (2) it was assumed his new adult caregiver would have William P's christening performed at the new location.
In researching William P's older brother, also named John JAMES, I found the Briton Ferry parish entries (christenings) to be FEWER than expected!!
I do NOT know where William P's drowned father, John JAMES, was born/christened. One U.S.A. census indicated father of William P. JAMES was born England and mother born Wales.
No idea where to go from here in research.
Thank you for your comments and offers of assistance. Much appreciated!!!
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