Help with dates in 1884 death record and, hopefully, finding the record it refers to.
Hello all,
The death record for Michele Lorello, my great grandfather, #11 at the bottom of the linked page seems to reference several dates 1884 March 18, 1876 July 25, and 1875 January 13 and I think it says he died in Villarosa, Enna, Sicily. Would you be able to take a look and let me know if I'm reading these dates correctly and which of them refers to his date of death? Then do you know where I might find records from Villarosa during these years? So far I've been able to locate only 1900+ records for this village.
Oh yes here is his PID LBQ5-SP9
Thanks so much for your insight. Emily
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99CH-ZKJS?i=173&cc=2120739
Answers
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he died 29 September 1884. I'm assuming you found this record in Part II of the records for that year. Part II is the section where deaths (or births or marriages in other books) are REPORTED back to the home comune from other places OR occasionally are reported after the year ended. I once found a birth record 15 years late! You didnt supply the man's name, so I am assuming you wanted us to read the only full record on the page. If that is incorrect and you wanted the record towards the bottom, I would need to see the whole page.
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Marijeanne, you’re right! I neglected to mention I’m referring to the record toward the bottom for Michele Lorello (I cant see it as I type but I think it’s #11) Thank you for pointing that out. I’ll try to edit my original post to clarify. Thanks again. Emily
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Dear @MarijeanneRende MarijeanneRende at this link in FS what I could found for Villarosa - Enna. Take into consideration in your research that Villarosa is part of Enna province only since 1927 and as I could understand before it was Caltanissetta. Villapriolo instead is a hamlet of Villarosa.
You can refer to FS Italy Genealogy wiki page for many resources you can use, including also translated act documents from Italian to English
I hope may help!
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Dear @MarijeanneRende MarijeanneRende at the link in my previous post you can find Villarosa's registers in general starting from 1763.
You can consult the ecclesiastic registers (Registri ecclesiastici) online from home, instead the remaining three, mainly in a FS family center. I hope it can help!
Below the details:
Italia, Enna, Villapriolo. Stato civile, 1866-1942
Enna, Villarosa (Parrocchia Santo Giacomo). Registri ecclesiastici, 1763-1929
Italia, Enna, Villarosa. Stato civile, 1866-1942
Registri dello stato civile di Villarosa (Caltanissetta), 1820-1910
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Dear @Emily Magazzi at this link in Antenati site I've found the birth record of Michele Lorello born in Mistretta on 18 of July 1837. If you may have problems in traslating let us know! I hope can help!
@MarijeanneRende MarijeanneRende sorry but in my previous posts I mentioned you instead of Emily
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Emily, so I looked at the record again....after I realized I could simply "click" to the next page (duh). I can see why you would be confused...there ARE alot of different dates. I suspect you have a case here where they were very very slow in recording the death in the home village..Either they were just SLOW or what they received first, wasn't "Official"-enough, I don't know.
But...here is what I gather..Michele Lorello definitely died in 1876 (per this document)....fyi, I'm guessing that they needed to record this death in their books because the widow wanted to remarry and they had no proof of the first spouses' death...but that is only speculation. When you see ACTS reported significantly late like this, there is usually a reason.
here is what I *think* I can decipher, Luigi ****/piro?? the delegate for the mayor[of Mistretto] is transcribing a death record they received for Michele Lorello. I *think* they're transcribing the official copy in October 1884, but I think they may have received it from Villarosa earlier in March 1884?? Is there any significance of which you're aware of these dates? Did his wife get remarried about this time? Did a child get married about that time? In either case, they would have had to provide proof of death for the father/husband. Personally, I would see if I could find the actual ATTO di morte in Villarosa from 1876 to validate what it says. There may be an entry clarifying some of this. I found that pulling the original death ATTO sometimes clarifies...of course, sometimes it makes things more confusing because someone in another village is reporting information for the deceased of which they may be incorrect. But, it might be worthwhile.
Anyway, I believe Michele Lorello, age 45, died 18 Jul 1876 in Villarosa. His wife was Grazia Lo Presti Note, there was an earlier reference to "Atto 13..1875"...I have no idea why that is there or what it means. Also, the word 'Gennaro'...is that a Sicilian dialect for gennaio(january)? If not, I'm not sure they mean a month... That part throws me....maybe someone else can advise?
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The other advantage in pulling the original ATTO di Morte is to clarify the year (e.g. 1875 versus 1876). I still don't understand the 1875 reference in the transcription.
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Dear @Emily Magazzi into the ecclesiastic registers of Villarosa I mentioned in my previous post, I've found also the death act of Michele. The act number 37 is written in Latin and the names for all are correct and the day of death reported is 19.03.1884. It's also reported that he was 45 years old.
You can refer to this link in FS.
With a little bit more time it's also possible to compare the two acts a little bit better.
I hope can help!
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Hi Emily and Massimo,
I'm not questioning the church record but the civil record clearly says he, Michele Lorello, age 45, died in July 1876 (I don't read Latin but I do read Italian). Is it possible that they reported the 1876 death to the church record in March 1884...and the civil authorities in Oct 1884? Why would his 1884 civil record transcription specifically mention 1876 if he really died in 1884? I'm starting to think either of two possibilities: 1. he literally "disappeared" in 1876 and no one knew what happened until 1884, or, 2. he did die in 1876 but somehow they didn't want to break church rules (???) by not reporting the death from 1876 and made it look like he died in 1884 on the church record???
Would anyone have an explanation as to why we might be seeing this strange combination of events? I'm just unclear. Is it possible that there were TWO Michele Lorello's....one who died in 1876 and one who died in 1884? (and that might explain confusion??) Just an idea. I would like to understand.
Thanks
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Massimo, do you have access to the restricted civil records for Villarosa (archivio di stato di Enna) to compare the original Villarosa Atto di Morte? Is it possible the clerk in Mistretto didn't transcribe it properly?
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Dear @MarijeanneRende MarijeanneRende unfortunately I don't, but the Emily request is so intriguing!!! I reviewed the death act posted by @Emily Magazzi and I can read the following (please refer to the attached pictures for numbers):
1 - 10.10.1884 - Transcription death act date
2 - 13.01.1875 - Clerk mandate date (The mayor gave mandate to the clerk to draw up for civil acts. Any clerk in Italy has a mandate from his mayor)
3 - 10.10.1884 - "Oggi" means today so the Transcription death act date
4 - 18.03.1884 - Original death act date
5 - 25.07.1876 - Clerk mandate date in the original death act
6 - 18.03.1884 - "Oggi" means today so the original death act date so in my opinion Michele's death date
Indeed a lot of dates very confusing! Sorry for my English but I don't know these terms so well. I hope this can help in clarifying
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@MarijeanneRende MarijeanneRende & @Massimo C.
Thank you both so much for all this information. I'll need to take some time to review it in more detail but I wanted to express my gratitude. Massimo, as you explain it, I wonder if the earlier dates are to provide evidence of the clerk's credentials sort of to show how long he has held the job (and as evidence that the clerk in this village was getting information from another official).
Cooincidentally, my son and I just started a latin class this week and the record you sent will be a good goal for me to work toward being able to read it!
Thanks again.
Emily
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Dear @Emily Magazzi thank you for your post.
Concerning the using of "clerk's credentials" in my opinion it was the practice in those years and not only for transcription's acts, in fact in the same register just some pages before (act num. 325), we have the same clerk's credentials used for Michele (Pino Luigi segretario delegato al sindaco con atto del 13 Gennaro 1875) but for a usual death act.
Concerning instead the using of these credentials as evidence that the clerk in this village was getting information from another official, I don't think so, because the reason why of the transcription is written in the description below "Numero 11" in Michele's document: "Trascrizione dell'atto di morte di Michele Lorello avvenuta in Villarosa", infact the registration of an act has to be made into the civil registers of the birth place (called transcription) in case the fact (birth, death, etc...) happened in another place different from the birth place.
I hope can help!
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