I was wondering if you could possibly help with a brick wall I have hit. I have taken several DNA te
I have hit a brick wall I have been trying to break for 8 years now. I can trace my paternal line back to a William Marshall born somewhere around 1817 in PA, according to a marriage certificate I found which I believe to be correct. Nothing else I have found has given me any information about this William. I know the name is correct according to his son's death certificate I found. I do not know if he had any other children nor of any of his siblings or parents' names. I can only confirm his name and possible birth year.
From DNA tests I have done and all the paternal DNA links, the PA birth makes sense. All the Marshalls we seem to have DNA links to trace back to PA and eventually Ireland. This fits with some of the history I have been told, but I was also told he was born in Germany. Nothing I find confirms this, not even any of the DNA links hint at this. I was also told he owned a plantation, but find no evidence of this either. Supposedly, according to oral tradition, he died and his wife, Anna Botts, remarried (I find no evidence of this either - according to my research she never remarried and died as Anna Marshall in 1895 in Louisville, KY) and that her new husband was a gambling man. Supposedly her new husband lost the plantation in a gambling match.
What I do know is that he married Anna Botts (daughter of Charles Botts and Sarah Covington Tutt) in 1856 in Kentucky. I know they lived in KY. I found a census report of Anna living with her mother and brother in Louisville, KY in 1850 and that she had a son named Charles Hart at that time (his father was Samuel Hart according to what I can find), then I find another census report of 1870 showing Anna with her son David C Marshall and her mother in Bardstown, KY. Next I find her living with her son, David C Marshall, in Louisville ,KY in 1879. Every time after this she is listed as "widow of William" and as living with her son. I do not know if David had any siblings because I do not find anything on them before 1870. I do not know anything about his father, William Marshall because I can find even mention William except for David's death certificate and the marriage certificate for William and Anna I found. None of the census reports I find ever mention any husband for Anna (not the 1850 nor the 1870 and I can't find an 1860 census for any of them, but as I understand it most of the KY 1860 census reports were lost in a fire.). When Anna's brother, A G Botts, died in 1871 he mentions Anna and her husband in his will. This is the only other reference I find for William. (I do not know whey Anna was not living with him in 1870 if he was still alive.) I am not sure when nor where he died.
All I know is all the DNA matches I have on my paternal side (especially the Y-DNA matches for my father, John Dustin Marshall) all seem to point to PA and Ireland. I would really like to be able to figure out which Marshall line I come from. I have been able to trace all other surnames in my tree, but not the Marshall line.
Could anyone help any?
I am a member of this site, which is where I found David Marshall's death certificate and his parent's marriage certificate, and My Heritage and Ancestry, and GED Match (although this site confuses me), Wiki Tree and many other sites. Nothing has been able to help so far. Nor any other Message Boards. Any help is appreciated.
Juli Marshall
Answers
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Hi, Juli! I’m not a Marshall, but have hit situations like this in my own research. A couple of things that have worked for me:
USGenweb.net sometimes has odd indexes or biographies, and since you know where they lived in PA and KY, you could get lucky there.
Try Google! Sometimes just Googling both names (e.g. “Anna Bott” “William Marshall” either separately or together at once will give you a new hit! I use the quote marks to make sure I don’t get responses from google with just Anna, for example, in them. You might also try adding state or city names in with your ancestors’ names. Searching several combinations has often yielded successful results for me.
Good luck! Sometimes time really is the answer. More records are being constantly, so it’s really likely that the link you’re looking for will pop up! It just may take a few years.
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Juli, I do not have any great insights, but perhaps a few clues. What religion were they? Many Marshal families are from Counties Antrim and Armagh, currently part of Northern Ireland, I suspect they may have been Presbyterian, but could have been Catholic. There are too many Marshal families in Ireland to try to search from that side so U.S. research is the best. I suggest you try to locate church records since they existed long before civil records in the U.S.
Also, land records in the U.S. go way back so that's worth searching. Try https://glorecords.blm.gov/ although their search engine is poor and you must have the exact spelling that was on the documents so try various spellings although if you know where they lived you can locate plat maps and search them that way too.
I suggest you get on the many FB Irish DNA genealogy websites and see if you can find more cousin matches that way. That has helped me a lot with my ten Irish lines! I've had some major breakthroughs that way. Just do a FB search of "Irish DNA Genealogy" and many will pop up. Join all that may apply.
Good luck.
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FYI - a "plantation" in many parts of America is just another word for a "farm" or other land.
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Juli- Sounds like you may need to start digging deeper in the DNA matches to find the connections between them and you- and between each of them to each other. Here's a youtube of Blaine Bettinger talking about building quick and dirty trees for DNA matches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmOZXCxsqNU
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Another DNA idea is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP8rUlZbmeA
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A few research tools maybe to revisit:1. land records for the Marshall and the Bott families. The family stories may have been mashed together about 'plantation' or farm. Also check in both PA and KY. Where did Bott family live before 1850 KY. 2. Census records on family relationships can be wrong or misconstrued. It is common to have census errors. So trace back the 'son of Anna Botts' son Hart( where did they live? why is his surname Hart and not Marshall? is he Ann's son, nephew of her sibing? or Ann's mother's son).3. death certs can also have errors too. The information on the death cert is only as good as the informant is. I have 2 death certs that led me down the wrong path cause the informant misconstrued the question of " parent"( the informants parent or the desceased's parent) 4. when was the will for Anna's bro. A.G. Botts 1st written? and when was it probated after A.G. death? those dates may help to narrow down William Marshalls death. 5. Have you researched all the Civil War records for ANY of the men? Not just military service but pensions? My VA ancestor didn't serve but I found him on the oath that all men in Confederacy had to sign. Same guy didn't sign, didn't serve in any military, got TB when he was held in POW camp awaiting his oath of alliegence, and died 1 month before the 1870 census...check the mortality census for 1870. 6. and always check for spelling errors in ALL records. 7. Use the FAN method for research( F= family A= aquaintances N= neighbors... took me 5 years to learn and use these tools to find and confirm my 4th GGF.
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Thank you, but I haven't got a clue as to what religion any of them were.
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I have thought of that, but without knowing a bit more I cannot determine which William Marshall in KY might be MY William as there are several at this time period.
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Thank you. I will check this out. Maybe it has some help. I have not had any luck with any of the YDNA or other Marshall line DNA matches because either they are stuck at the same person as I am or they trace their lines back pretty far, but since I cannot then I cannot link my tree to theirs. No one has a William in their tree that fits any information or dates of my William.
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Thank you. I will check this out.
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Thank you. I have looked into much of this, but still can't seem to get anywhere. Again, without knowing more, there are too many William Marshalls in PA and KY and even in VA where the Botts came from. I cannot find anything at all on Anna's other son Charles Hart, again there are too many Charles Harts. the only mention of him is the one census report I found in 1850. I know he was her son and found a marriage certificate for Anna Botts and Samuel Hart. That is all I know so no help there. David's death certificate is correct as the information matches everything else and was given by his wife. As for AG Bott's will, the only date is 1871. As for Civil War records, I have tried, but again way too many William Marshalls. I have no idea which one is mine. Found one pension that could be my William, but no way of knowing for sure. The FAN method hasn't been much help at all so far. Tried that, too. None of the other names have led to anything. Thank you for trying to help, though. I am just very frustrated. One thing that frustrates me is that if the family was so well off then why Anna Marshall was buried in a potter's field at her death. I know she and David moved a lot. I know they did not have money according to everything I find. She could have had at one time if the tax records I found are for her, but again can't confirm. It is odd that I find tax records for a William Marshall for 1863, 1864 and 1865, then in 1866 find records for a Anna Marshall. 2 of the William Marshalls have a liquor license and one has a hotel then Anna has a liquor and hotel license. Thing is they are all in different counties, which I know could just be changing county lines. But again, this does not help me figure out who my William actually is. Anyways, thanks for the advice. I will keep searching.
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@Juli Marshall The best way to determine their religion is to start with present day records and go back through the generations and see what church they are being baptized in or where they are being buried? Catholic cemetery? Protestant cemetery? The religion of a family is usually passed down especially through the maternal lines at least until the 20th century; that's when families began to leave their traditional religions behind.
It's imperative to know the religion to determine where and how to search for the records. There's a saying that 90% of all Irish research is done in America. By building and creating a solid foundation of records and information for the Irish-American immigrants, then you can move backwards to earlier dates and best determine where they might be from in Ireland. My wild guess is that they are Protestant, but it would be important to know if Presbyterian or Church of Ireland; still it would not be surprising if the family was Catholic.
I highly recommend submitting your DNA results to gedmatch.com (free website) and using that gedmatch number as an admission to the many FB DNA groups for Ireland. I have had amazing contacts that way and I am slowly, very slowly piecing to together.
I wonder if anyone else has any great suggestions?
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Unfortunately I do not have any information on church affiliation of David, other than he was associated with the Christian Church in Louisville, KY at the time of his death in Dayton, OH. He and his son, John Marshall, are both buried in Willow View Cemetery in Dayton, OH. I have no other information on any church affiliation of any of them. And this information has not yielded any information so far. There are just too many William Marshalls in Louisville, KY and at least 2 David C Marshalls in Louisville, KY and several David Marshalls. I only know by a marriage certificate that William may have come from PA, which fits with my DNA matches. But, again, there are too many Marshalls in PA. I only have a rough estimate of 1817 for his birth and not clue of his death. I only know I find no records with William mentioned by name except that Anna is listed as "Widow of William" from 1879 to her death in 1895. He is not mentioned in any census reports I can find that I know are my people.
As far as GEDMatch.com, I have uploaded all of our results, but this site confuses me. I just don't understand how to use it, which makes me feel very stupid because I had 2 years of genetics in college. But mostly, it is frustrating that so many DNA links either do not have a tree published, will not give any information when contacted (or they don't know anything either) or they only research their direct line so I cannot tie my tree to theirs. I have already been trying to figure this out for 7 years and really am no closer now than I was then. I know more about others, but still cannot trace the Marshall line.
Thank you for your help. I will continue to work on this.
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I will look at USGenweb.net. I have not checked that site out yet. As for Google, I have tried googling almost everything I can think of and not gotten any new results that tell me something I don't already know. It is so frustrating. I have been trying to figure this out for 7 years now.
Thank you for the suggestion.
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Actually, Juli, you do have more info than I think you realize. First, it's obvious they were non-Catholic which narrows it down to a a much smaller group in Ireland, either Church of Ireland (England) or Presbyterian.
About Gedmatch, I understand that feeling because everything I learned in college genetics is now very stale info. I have certainly struggled with the massive amount of new DNA info. I watch Gedmatch videos on YouTube to help me and I spend a lot of time writing to people requesting access to their family trees. It is a slow tedious process, but it has proven many things for me. I continue to learn more daily. DNA research has incredible rewards, but it is hard work and not fast and never easy!
I sometimes end up with an ancestor where there are 20 of them with the same name in the same civil parish in Ireland or New York City. I do the genealogy for each of the 20 people (often referred to as "marrying and burying them") to determine which one might be my ancestor. Also, tedious, but necessary when there's little info.
Some ancestors I have searched for more than 50 years, but with DNA I have had many breakthroughs and I am hopeful for the rest. Do not despair, keep at it!
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Thank you for your help. I'm not giving up. It is very tedious. I, too, have multiple trees trying to figure this out. So far no luck, but I have made many discoveries of my family so far and am enjoying the research. It is just very frustrating to get stuck so early on in the tree. And it doesn't help that oral tradition is incorrect. I have already disproved several things I was told while growing up. Disappointing on some of them, but fascinating on other discoveries that no one else had found. Anyways, thanks again.
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But as for the Catholic stuff, I don't know. Oral tradition says William's wife may have been Catholic and possibly even his son, David's, wife was catholic, too. I have not found any evidence of that but also nothing to prove it false. So, I really do not know about the religion. I have found no religious or church documents nor Bible family histories with their information. I have found some for other family members, but not the Marshalls. I will keep looking, though. Thanks.
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