I have a photo of some of my relatives with an early flying machine. I would love to know some hist
It is believed that this aircraft was made by some of the Windiate boys around the time that Louis Bleriot flew across the English Channel in 1909. Horace Charles Windiate (1885-1955) is in the front, Leonard Ernest Windiate (1892-1974) is the first left in the rear, Herbert Sydney Windiate (1890-1960) and an unknown family friend are to the right rear. The style of their clothing suggests about 1909.
They are known to have lived in the area around Northfleet Strood, Gravesend, Dartford (Kent, England.)
I am aware of the Lympne Aerodrome near the port of Hythe and organized by the Royal Aero Club. These competitions started in 1923. I do not think that Horace looks like he is 38 in this photo. His style of dress also seems to fit with the 1909 scenario. His brothers would need to be around 30-33 years old too.
The brothers names are not listed in the list of pilots awarded an Aviator's Certificate by the Royal Aero Club 1910-1914.
Did my relatives really fly this invention? Was it really their invention? Was this a popular past-time to create planes? Or do I have a very unique family photo?
I am looking for suggestions on how to learn more about early flight in England.
@England Genealogy Research
Answers
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I contacted the Royal Aero Club in the area and got a quick response:
Your recent enquiry to the Royal Aero Club has been forwarded to my attention.
As you will understand, we are only able to offer a restricted enquiry service at the moment. Our records and artefacts are archived at the RAF Museum, Hendon, which is still closed.
However, one of my colleagues – with whom I have shared your enquiry – comments as follows:
“There is no mention of the Windiates in any of the standard reference books on pre-WW1 aircraft. Nor are there any patents in their name. A Google image search came up with no results.
Looking at the image, I would judge this to be an advertising gimmick, a simple cart maybe for use in a town carnival or similar. It clearly is not a viable aircraft, the wings are far too small and unbraced, so not capable of bearing a load. The 3-cylinder motor looks like a simple mock-up, it lacks all the engineering detail such as valves and so on, and if it were to turn the propeller the slipstream would simply hit the large shrouded vertical surface behind and negate any thrust. The presence of numerous lamps look like decoration.
Whatever its purpose, a great deal of work had clearly gone into it.”
Yours sincerely,
Andrew
Mr A C Dawrant
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Regardless of whether it flew, it is fun though, isn't it!
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I agree! I shared their response because I thought this was a good example of reaching out to someone that has the local records, interest, and knowledge to find out the answer. I had recognized that it looked different than other planes, but I hadn't really thought about whether the wings needed to be bigger. I think that the father of a couple of the young men was a carpenter. The father prepared for his own death by making his own coffin. The boys probably had learned some building skills from him. I would like to know if they thought they could make a plane that could fly though. The yards in England are pretty tiny. They might not have had any more width to build their wings. I wish that I could find someone that descended from these Windiate brothers!
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Carolyn,
I would check the following sources:
1) Local newspaper[s] serving in the Northfleet region - there should be some notice or brief article that would touch on their hobby/project[s]
2) check the 1939 register for any clues--occupationally speaking
3) DNA study might reveal something of substance
4) IF they ever did complete a flying machine, check the local hospital records for possible accident/admission as a result of accident[s] in their experiments!
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Thanks Phil for your suggestions. I will check into possible newspaper articles about their hobby. This is a good idea. I love researching in newspapers, but I hadn't considered this with this case.
I did check the occupations of his family members in 1911.
Horace was in the Royal Air Force in 1915. He was a confectioner from at least 1930-1939.
the 1901 Census indicates that the family occupations were builder, painter, and carpenter.
I have not found any close DNA matches to this family line....yet. I can hope for great matches soon. I have reached out to the closest matches from searching others with trees.
Do they keep old hospital records in England? It would be worth trying if the records were available to the public. I would expect privacy laws or the disposal of old records would make this an impractical search. It would certainly be interesting to find an injury or a news article about their adventures.
Thanks for brainstorming with me!
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Hospital records often exist--either at the hospital (if still in operation), usually in a muniment/archive room, or, they may end up in the county record office, local library, college archive, or, forgotten--in someone's attic, etc.
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Do they not consider the hospital records private? In the United States I wouldn't be able to ask for my relatives records. How does this work in England?
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No idea what the general rule is, but I did get the records for my GG-GM's time in an asylum -1880s? These were with the local University who are one of the bodies collecting records for the area. So it can happen but whether it is something allowed to happen with recent records, I've no idea.
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Thanks Adrian, this is good to know! I wonder if there are records about my ancestor that was in a workhouse. My mom didn't know much about it, but she always shuddered when she commented that he had to go to the workhouse. I remember understanding that the workhouse was an unpleasant place before I knew what a workhouse was.
I have other ancestors that were in charge of a workhouse in a town near Cornwall. I have a copy of a document that indicated that my ancestors resigned because there were complaints about them. There was a response to the complaint that indicated that they didn't need to leave before they were replaced. I wonder if there is more information available about this story? Do you know what University I would contact to see if there might be records archived for this area?
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For workhouses, the essential site is http://workhouses.org.uk/
For hospital records in general, I suggest that you start with the National Archives Research Guide on https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/hospitals/
I'm not certain where the current detailed list of record repositories is - I think that the Guide says what to search for but links to an older list.
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