Udligenswil LU - ancestors - 1664-1680 - Henseler Jacob - discrepancies
Udligenswil LU 1664-1680 Henseler Jacob
Dear all
I'm reaching out to you since I am rather new to family search, and I have noted a potential confusion I am unable to resolve myself. I have noticed that the data in my direct line on FamilySearch does not match 1:1 with the information I have from a hand-drawn family tree that is available to me. Unfortunately, I do not know which is correct and which is wrong. The FamilySearch or the painted family tree contains potential errors from that period (around 1664 or 1680). This relates to Switzerland, canton of Lucerne, Udligenswil
So this is the person I can directly link all my direct line grandfathers (confirmed line):
Andreas Henseler (1711-1761): https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/fanchart/GQL8-WG4
Now the question is, who is the correct father? :)
Currently linked:
Joannes Jacobus Henseler
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/changelog/GQL8-LG9
Wife Anna Maria Müller is correct, however his parents do not match the painted family tree, also the birthdate of 1664 does not match. Further he would be 47y at the birth of Andreas. And Anna Henseler would be alread 49y at the birth of Andreas, which seems possible, but very unlikely, isn't it?
According to the drawn family tree, it would rather be:
Jacobus Henseler
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/GX4P-3TQ
His birthday is 1680, matching my information, also his parents do exactly match with my information
The mother, Anna Maria Müller, would be the same in both cases. Therefore, I believe there may be a confusion between Jacobus and Joannes Jacobus.
I know there are a lot of sources attached to both profiles as well as Anna Maria Müller.
How could I clarify and resolve this and would someone willing to help me from the community? thank you very much in advance
Comments
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Dear all
I'm reaching out to you since I am rather new to family search, and I have noted a potential confusion I am unable to resolve myself. I have noticed that the data in my direct line on FamilySearch does not match 1:1 with the information I have from a hand-drawn family tree that is available to me. Unfortunately, I do not know which is correct and which is wrong. The FamilySearch or the painted family tree contains potential errors from that period (around 1664 or 1680). This relates to Switzerland, canton of Lucerne, Udligenswil
So this is the person I can directly link all my direct line grandfathers (confirmed line):
Andreas Henseler (1711-1761): https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/fanchart/GQL8-WG4
Now the question is, who is the correct father? :)
Currently linked:
Joannes Jacobus Henseler
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/changelog/GQL8-LG9Wife Anna Maria Müller is correct, however his parents do not match the painted family tree, also the birthdate of 1664 does not match. Further he would be 47y at the birth of Andreas. And Anna Henseler would be alread 49y at the birth of Andreas, which seems possible, but very unlikely, isn't it?
According to the drawn family tree, it would rather be:
Jacobus Henseler
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/GX4P-3TQHis birthday is 1680, matching my information, also his parents do exactly match with my information
The mother, Anna Maria Müller, would be the same in both cases. Therefore, I believe there may be a confusion between Jacobus and Joannes Jacobus.
I know there are a lot of sources attached to both profiles as well as Anna Maria Müller.
How could I clarify and resolve this and would someone willing to help me from the community? thank you very much in advance
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Well - there is only one way to find out: check all the relevant original records yourself.
Am I right in assuming that this has not be done yet - and you need help for that? This may become time-consuming, and as I prefer to work with original information whenever possible, could you post a copy of the relevant part of the painted tree, please?
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Thank you for your answer and yes that is what I started, with the source document and I found the entry for the jacobus (anno 1680) legitimate son of jacobi henseler and barbara kop. What I havent found is any other hint which would resolve this contradiction. Or maybe its the same person afterall just with an error on the birthdate?
I will continue to consult the primary sources,
if you have any hints or have time to look into it any help would be very much appreciated!best regards
Marco
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Short question first - you write "Thank you for your answer and yes that is what I started, with the source document and I found the entry for the jacobus (anno 1680) legitimate son of jacobi henseler and barbara kop.". Did you actually check the (handwritten) original records - or just the index entries?
Just as an aside: Jacob's father's correct name is not "Jacobi Henseler" but "Jacobus Henseler". "Jacobi" is the genitive form of Jacobus - similar to "Jacob's son", which does not mean the father's name is "Jacob's".
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Now for your genealogical question …
First step: compile and compare all data at hand.
Most recent generation: Joannes Heinricus (1740-1802) and Joannes Casparus (1750-1832)
I have only checked the baptismal entries - dates are correct on the graphical tree - with a minor inaccuracy: Joannes Heinricus was baptised 12.05.1740, not 13.05.1740. Mother is listed as Maria Catharina Schwendiman (1740) and Catharina Schwendiman (1750).
Next generation: Andreas (1711-1761)
Always try to find the marriage first:
As both trees agree on the date (06.02.1736) I assumed this to be correct, and did not search for alternative entries.
Adreas Henseler Juvenis cum pudica Virgo Anna M(aria) Catharina Schwendiman ex parochia Buochrein.
Note that the bride's given name is clearly written Anna Maria Catharina (somewhat more difficult in the children's baptismal entries) - so the "Anna-Ruth" in the graphical tree is clearly a reading error (likely based on the baptismal entries).
They are "Juvenis" and "pudica Virgo", i.e. both married for the first time. The bride is from the parish of Buochrein (= Buchrain). Unfortunately no further helpful information (like date of birth or parent's names) is given. So the best next step is to look for the burial entry:
Note - another inaccuracy (month) in the graphical tree. Andreas Henseler was the husband ("maritus") of Maria Catharina Schwendiman - so we got the correct burial entry. He was about 50 years old - therefore born around 1711. I have checked baptismal records 1707 to 1715 - only a single Andreas Henseler:
Andreas' parents are Joannes Jacobus Henseler and Anna Maria Müller(in). I am a little bit worried by the cross next to the name: this usually indicates that a child died young, i.e. didn't get married and didn't have offspring. But then there is no alternative (unless a man from another parish with the same name had married a women of the same name in another parish - which I would consider highly unlikely). There is definitely no suitable baptism in Udligenswil on 16.08.1712 - this date in the graphical tree seems to be just wrong.
First conclusion: up to this point the tree on familysearch looks more reliable.
The next generation (Joannes Jacobus or just Jacobus) is the bigger challenge - give me more time for this.
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Wow, @WSeelentag you are such a treasure to our community, that's amazing research!
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Who are Andreas' parents? We are looking for a couple Joannes Jacobus (or just Jacobus?) Henseler and Anna Maria Müller.
First step: their marriage. None mentioned in either tree on familysearch, but 16.08.1701 on the graphical tree:
The bride is fine - but the groom is Joannes Casparus Ehler … doesn't fit in here at all! I have checked marriages 1671 to 1712 - nothing relevant found. Next step - the burial notice - agreement on 21.01.1714:
Unfortunately no age given, which would help identify which Joannes Jacobus. Next step - the baptismal records. Two different are mentioned:
Note the date: 20 September - not 29. September (reading error in the index). The other one being
with just Jacobus, not Joannes Jacobus. You wrote "Or maybe its the same person after all just with an error on the birthdate?" … no - these are definitely two different persons. BTW - I have found another Joannes Jacobus Henseler, born 1666, just indexed incorrectly:
Conclusion: with all the inconsistencies in the graphical tree, I tend to trust the tree on familysearch - despite the parents being fairly old when Andreas was born 1711. Based just on these church records we cannot be 100% sure, however. Luzern is not my usual area of research, so I just don't know if other sources exist, which might solve the problem.
Suggestion: we could post this on Geneal-Forum, where we would get a much wider audience of researchers resident in Switzerland. There is no guarantee - you just might be lucky and someone researching the family reads it. If you want me to do this, I would need to know the reference for the graphical tree - like, who drew it, where is it kept, viewable online, …?
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First of all, WSeelentag, your help and dedication is extremly appreciated, and I see you are an absolute expert! Heartfelt thank you!
When I looked at the below on the birth of Andreas, what I noted is, that also the godfathers name is Andreas Henseler (!). And yes, I noted the cross left to his name as well, but not sure whether this indicates the child or has the meaning you mentioned, it is used within the previous pages on quite some (male) other children.
Birth
Death
And I also concluded that from his death date 6. June 1761 and the age 50, that the birthyear of 1711 seems to be the most accurate.
I'll try to find out on the author of the tree. For the tree I know it is a physical paper approx 2m x 2m at my parent's house, but I know there are copies and I found someone with a copy (who bought it at a family gathering in the 1980s). Therefore, I do not know about the copy rights, and I don't think it is accessible online. I do have digital photographs of the tree.
The Geneal-Forum would be a fantastic idea, and since you already invested quite a lot of time, that could be useful for someone else as well.
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When I looked at the entry below on the birth of Andreas, what I noted is, that also the godfathers name is Andreas Henseler (!). And yes, I noted the cross left to his name as well, but not sure whether this indicates the child or has the meaning you mentioned, it is used within the previous pages on quite some (male) other children.
Children dying young was quite common at the time - so several crosses (with this meaning) on a page would not be surprising. On the other hand, I did not find a corresponding death entry (prior to 1736). Therefore I agree - it likely has a different meaning here: this is one of the points to be asked on the forum - habits in Luzern may have been different to what I am used to.
I'll try to find out on the author of the tree. For the tree I know it is a physical paper approx 2m x 2m at my parent's house, but I know there are copies and I found someone with a copy (who bought it at a family gathering in the 1980s). Therefore, I do not know about the copy rights, and I don't think it is accessible online. I do have digital photographs of the tree.
Copyright should not be a problem: surely older than 70 years and owned by your family. Also, I wouldn't publish the entire tree (anyone interested in a copy should contact you directly). I recommend to use only the comparative table posted above (with markings updated) to explain the situation. Reference would be "privately owned by descendants". If there is an author mentioned on the document - or if you can find out otherwise, this would be fine; if not - "author unknown".
The Geneal-Forum would be a fantastic idea, and since you already invested quite a lot of time, that could be useful for someone else as well.
Agreed - would hopefully also be useful for other researchers. Best regards for now …
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