Have I found the correct birth record?
Hello Everyone!
It should first be mentioned that I am not certain if this is the right place to ask this question, but I thought I would begin here and see what happens.
So I am trying to figure out if I might have found the birth record for a relative of mine or not.
What I am trying to find is the birth record for one Elisabeth Oeke.
She married one Frans Fuest:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13014/KB001-05-H/?pg=10
Could this maybe be her birth record:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13013/KB003-02-T/?pg=186
I mean a lot of information fits well together with the marriage record.
There is however one problem…
…. The last name in the birth record is Oeken and not Oeke.
I guess what I am curious to find out more about is if there could be some German grammar rule that at times could turn Oeke into Oeken? ( I do know that the German language has a more or less obsessive need to conjugate everything 😊 so I was sort of hoping that maybe this was the case here as well. )
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find her death record so I can’t use any information from that one.
Any thoughts, ideas and or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Update:
The marriage record can be found as "number 3"
Her potential birth record can be found as "number 4"
Answers
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Yes, @KalleLilja, this is the correct place to post your questions and translation requests.
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As the birth record is from January 1802, she would have been 28 years old in 1830. However, I see that the bride is said to be 30 years old in 1830. The residence locations are also different: Lichtenau in 1802 vs. Holtheim in 1830. While these differences may not be conclusive I would be cautious about assuming that it is the same person.
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Hello @KalleLilja,
The marriage took place in August 1832.
So the birth record from January 1802 for "Anna Maria Elisabetha Oeken" matches the age of "Elisabeth Oeke" in the 1832 marriage record.
The father in the birth record is "Joannes Oeken" and he presumably lives in Lichtenau where the birth/baptism took place. The father in the 1832 marriage record is "Joannes Oeke" and he is a shoemaker in Holtheim. Lichtenau and Holtheim are approximately two miles apart.
I found seven birth/baptismal records in the Holtheim parish of St Franziscus Xav. in the Taufen Register for 1803-1847 (on Matricula) for the children of Frans Fuest and Elisabeth Oeke as follows:
Bernardina Fuest, born 1833, image no. T_0069.
Bernard Fuest, born 1835, image no. T_0081.
Frans Fuest, born 1838, image no. T_0097.
Wilhelm Fuest, born 1839, image no. T_0105.
Theresia Carolina Fuest, born 1842, image no. T_0119.
Theresia Carolina Fuest, born 1844, image no. T_0139.
Carl Johann Georg Fuest, born 1847, image no. T_0161.In all of these records the mother is identified as: Elisabeth Oeke.
Here is the link for the birth/baptismal record for the first-born child of this couple named Bernardina Fuest: https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13014/KB001-01-T/?pg=35
Bernardina's record is no. 12. Her mother's name is Elisabeth Oeke. Now look at the next record, no. 13, for a child named Frans Joseph: the father's name is Christoph Oeken and the godfather of this same child is named Frans Oeken. So Oeke and Oeken appear to be separate surnames at least in this parish in 1833.
You have enough matching elements between the marriage record and the birth/baptismal record that you cannot dismiss the 1802 birth/baptismal record as not being for "your" Elisabeth Oeke. But also be aware of the differences between the two records: spelling of surnames; forenames; and residences.
So the answer to your question "Have I found the correct birth record" is: maybe.
Finally, here is the link to Frans Fuest's death record in 1857 in case you haven't already found it: https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13014/KB002-02-S/?pg=34
It is record no 4. for the year 1857 and the record goes across both pages.
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Maybe I should have added this:
Holtheim is a breakout parish from Lichtenau.
I think it broke out 1803 or maybe 1804.
If I am not mistaken it was even the same priest working for both parishes in the beginning.Thanks for the great input!
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Cheers for that great information!
I am beginning ot think that this birth record is not the correct one.
I am more and more leaning into the idea that there were two different families, one called Oeke and one called Oeken.
I am going to have a look in a index over Lichtenau's church records 1690-1803 and see if I can find both last names listed there as well .
What I really need is probably her death record. That would help out a lot. ( For some reason I have not been able to locate that one. )
Hmm I wonder if she managed to reach 80 years of age or somehting like that. Then there might be a civil death record in play…..**
Is it absolutely certain that death record is the correct one, by the way.
I also have this you see:
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13014/KB002-02-S/?pg=42Number 2
Wonderful with two brothers born just a couple of years apart and both given the names Joes and Fransiscus.
Their birth records
Joes Fransiscus Antonius Fuest ( born 1798 )
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13013/KB003-02-T/?pg=177
Number 56
Joes Fransiscus Fuest ( born 1802 )
https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/paderborn/DE_EBAP_13013/KB003-02-T/?pg=186
Number 1
O well something for me to think about before going to bed…..
Again thanks for the great input.
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It might be useful to go through the Lichtenau and Holtheim records and match up the birth and marriage records for a number of individuals with Oeke and Oeken surnames to see if they ever switch.
I happened to very briefly look at the Lichtenau death records and there are a lot of men named Joannes Oeke/Oeken so it might be a challenge (but hopefully still doable) to match up Elisabeth with her correct parents. If you look at just this 1 page of 1806 death records alone there are 3 men named Joannes Öke (ages 65, 58 and 59) and 1 named Joannes Öken (age 47).
The 58 year old Joannes Öke is a shoemaker so a possible lead but shoemaker was a fairly common occupation - there may certainly be more than one shoemaker named Joannes Öke to sort through.
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Hello @KalleLilja,
The 1857 death record for Frans Fuest lines up with both the 1832 marriage record and the 1802 birth/baptismal record.
In the 1832 marriage record his age is 30. His calculated birth year would be 1802.
In the July 1857 death record his age is 55 years and 6 month. His calculated birth date would be the first week of January 1802.
In the 1802 birth/baptimsal record Frans is born on 6 January 1802 = the first week of January 1802.
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Cheers for that one!
Then at least one person from NRW is not that good at his/her work. ( Thye told me that the other birth record belonged to Bernard's father.0 -
That is actually an interesting idea.
I should probably save up a couple of more people to look out for though before doing such "big project".0