Looking for graves ... Glasgow Scotland
I have considerable information regarding two people, husband and wife. I even purchased their death registrations.
I have contacted several departments in Glasgow to see where I can try to find the graves of the two people. Sadly all I get is people pointing me to each other and no one seemly answering my queries on where I should go.
For example here are the departments I've contacted.
- You would think these people would know ? bereavement.services@Ls .glasgow.xxxxx
- Cemetaries, seems obvious but no. cemsandcrems@glasgow .xxxxx
- Obviously these people have the records but no. Archives@glasgowlife xxxxx
- This email was with the Mitchell Museum which claims they can help but cant. info@glasgowlife .xxxxx
They all seem to say it's not them and then as I say point to one of the other address in my list.
I'm going around in circles. The only feed back I got was a form if I want to visit times and to fill out when I will visit. I cannot visit as I'm not in Scotland. And surely if someone is even in Scotland but say on the Island Of Sky they are not expected to drive there?
Has anyone had experience looking for graves, probably Glasgow. Please advise. Here are the links to the two people.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LZJG-J84
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LZJG-J6J
Thank you.
PS I cant find them on Findagrave.
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Hi @ColinM0288 looks to me like Johnston and Mary were buried at Sandymount Cemetery, Glasgow.
You can view the internment record for them both here. It included internments dates, ages and plot number. It also lists an address which matches the 1891 census and an occupation for Johnston (Oil merchant ). There are two others buried in the same plot. Ann Gibson aged 14, died 1891, and Margaret McLachie, aged 81, died 1961. Presumably their daughters.
Edit to add: FindAGrave is a fantastic resource, but based on user contributions, so it's not a complete (or always accurate) database by any means. That you weren't able to find a record on there simply means no one has recorded those interments on that platform at this stage.
Hope that helps.
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Thank you. Yes obviously its of incredible help.
Have to do some research on some of the other names. One thing leads to another. That's the fun of it I think.
Can you tell me how you found it? I mean I checked on Familysearch, which seems to be were the record is found. I tried many filters etc, but don't know why you found it and I could not on Ancestry or on Familysearch. I'm just trying to improve my skills to see where I went wrong for future research.
Yes I am aware that all many of the findagrave type sites are available only as people enter the data. I have added some myself. It is a good site but because of this has limitation.
Thank you again.
Regards
Colin😊
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Hi Colin, glad to be of help.
Yes, happy to tell you how I found it. FamilySearch hold burial records for numerous Glasgow Cemeteries. However, they haven't been indexed, which is why you wouldn't have found the records you were searching for via a Record Search.
It's very worth while to browse via the catalogue if you know the region you are searching in, as it can uncover record sets that have been digitised but not indexed.
In this case, as I knew the year to search, if I had also know the cemetery in question, I would have browsed the images manually. But as the cemetery was unknown, I instead tried a Full Text Search with a Glasgow location and year filters. I tried "Johnston Robertson Gibson", "Johnston R Gibson", "J R Gibson", and finally, "Johnston Gibson" which produced the record.
Full Text Search is fallible as it doesn't account for spelling and name variations. I'm also not sure it is a true "Full Text" search as, when browsing via the catalogue, it doesn't appear to be available on all digitised record sets (another good reason to also manually browse the catalogue). But with a bit of finessing of search parameters it can be helpful in locating tricky to find records.
I agree, those new and unexpected leads are like finding gold! I noticed there are two daughters named Margaret currently in this family who reached full age, perhaps the Margaret in this record will shed some light on that. I hope it will be an interesting string to pull!
All best in your research,
Rani 😊
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Thank you for the information. I will save this as it is a great tip for us novices. We should all take note.
This family is my wife's great grandparents. The children most of them moved to Canada and the USA well and England. If we are talking about he same people, to be 2 Margaret's. LZJG-KDK and GCS8-J82 Its a little odd. But One died early then a few years later they named another child same name. Interesting things people do.
We are trying to figure out the relationship of last two people in the list.
When I look up Mary Ann Ferris in Scottish history site she comes back as mothers maiden name Balmer.
My brain breaks a little. I think then she could be a sister to Johnston Gibson, As his mothers maiden name was Balmer, But she could also be a sister to his mother or a relative one to Johnston Gibsons Mothers family, (Margaret Balmer. ) (may sometimes be miss spelled Bullmer?)
The last name I have not been able to see any family link yet. Margaret McLatchie.
My wife made an interesting point. Who gave permission to the last two Burials since it appears Johnston Gibson had purchased it. I know here in Canada things are a little more strict. Not sure you could do it after the person who purchased it died, unless perhaps specified. ??
Thank you again for your knowledge and help.
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I see I misspoke regarding both Margarets reaching full age, I suspect in my hast I misread the death date of the elder Margaret (GCS8-J82). Apologies and thank you for pointing that out. After looking again I note the elder Margaret only had an estimated death date of "before 1892". I jumped over to Scotland's People to check it and she in fact died in 1883, the same year she was born, so giving a second child the same name was very common practice. (I've made the amendment to (GCS8-J82) with Scotland's People reference noted).
Though all that doesn't help with identifying the mysterious Margaret McLatchie!
Were you able to find her death registration entry? I see she is recorded in the civil death index as "Margaret Jane McClatchey". But unfortunately with no mother's maiden name listed.
I agree that Mary Ann Ferris is most likely Johnston Gibson's sister given her approximate birthdate, but I think you're wise to consider the other possibilities as well. That likelihood would also void the marriage record currently attached to Hugh Gibson as it occurred after Mary Ann was born.
I think, for better or worse, the most straightforward way to get to the bottom of the relationships is by purchasing the death certificates. But of course, being likely secondary relationships that may not be a priority for you. I know how multiple certificates can start to add up!
It may be possible that Margaret McLatchie is a closer relation of Mary Ann Ferris than of Johnston Gibson.
Regarding ownership of the burial plot (lair), ownership can be willed. But if not, the rights automatically pass to their successors who could be (in order of precedence) spouse, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, parents, brothers/sisters, aunts/uncles, cousins, remote descendants and ascendants. So if most of the children had immigrated by the 1920s, its possible the rights passed to a secondary relative.
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I'm working through you comments slowly, I may have more to say.
But am thankful for all notes. Amongst doing many house things right now, got to clean the leaves out of eves etc. winter and so on. I thought I would start by downloading the death docs of Mary Ann, I mean you could spend a life time looking just to save a few dollars. Scotland is prety cheap for their documents, that's nice. Well Each document is a gold mine as you said. So It looks like Mary Ann is a sister of Johnston / Daughter of Hugh. Which makes sense in that we did wonder how they only had ONE child, e.g Johnston while many people are having 8 or 10 children, save medical reasons they could not. The document also has here husband. So that adds more gold. Johnston probably had more siblings perhaps Mary Ann will start a flood of names?
Regards.
Ps I have uploaded the image but it was removed. I have to figure out why? Some policy. I have read it but not clear to me.
But hopefully they will allow images from off site??
Here it is.
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Of course, take your time! That's the beauty of genealogy, it's not going anywhere! House maintenance on the other hand… The very definition of a stitch in time! Hope it goes smoothly for you!
I agree, Scotland is very reasonable in their prices, unlike some other countries whose fees make the eyes water. And in this case it looks very worth the investment! I'm so pleased. Thank you for sharing your findings with me, it's always nice to see how these things play out.
What really interested me about this document was the informant, daughter Jeanie MCCLATCHEY. I strongly suspect she is our mysterious Margaret McLatchie. You'll recall her death is recorded as "Margaret Jane McCletchey" and there is also a "Margaret Jane Ferris" born to a William Ferris and Margaret Gibson in 1880 which fits. In the 1881 census she is listed as "Jane Ferris" so I suspect she went by a pet form of her middle name in everyday life, hence appearing under both names, and at some point she married a McClatchey.
It's worthwhile to have a look at that 1881 census as I note Mary Ann Gibson Ferris is listed as 9 years younger relative to her age given at death. This may prove very useful in locating other relevant records. There is also another daughter, Eliza Ann, born 1877, who I suspect is a match for one Elizabeth Ferris McFall who immigrated to the US. You can find her via the duplicate suggestion on Mary Ann Gibson's PID, I've attached a passport application which includes a photo, which may be of interest to you.
Also have a look at the tax records on Scotland's People, the index provides addresses. A Mrs Jeanie MacLachie is living at 964 Tollcross rd in 1930. I'm sure there will be more clues buried in those indexes.
In reference to the image being removed. I can see it in the sources on Mary Ann Gibsons profile. If you mean you tried uploading it here in the community forum, they're a bit more of a stickler about removing third party images here (though it seems with a bit more flexibility in regards to translation assistance posts). There are rules around copyright across both platforms, though I think (and don't quote me on this) there's a bit of a grey area around fair use and education purposes, particularly when it's a source you've purchased outright.
I've enjoyed working with you on this little corner of your research, thank you. I hope it leads to many more discoveries for you.
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Again thank you for your comments.
15 or twenty bags of leaves. Ugg. If there is one job I don't like its picking up leaves. The city pickup ends in the second week of Dec. Sometimes there are still some leaves on the trees then. I wish it went longer. Aaanyway… Yes there is something funny with the death date of Mary Ann Gibson . There are at least two documents that say she died at age 91. But when we do the maths this would mean her mother was if i recall 13 yrs old. (1835) Unlikely. But then when you see the 1881 census it says she is 37. Which means she was born about 1844. That makes sense. I also know how documents get corrupted. One copies another and before you know it they all say the same wrong thing. I think both these documents were death documents, Death Registry and Burial Registry. So most likely one copied the other. I have put her birth I think at about 1844.
The tax angle is a good one I will have to look at that. I'm still trying to get my head around the Card index thing but find it hard to sort through. But working on it …. What would be helpful would be to find the census for Johnston Gibson and Mary Ann Gibson for 1881 or previous years but I cant seem to find that.
Thank you for the tip of the married name of Elizabeth Ferris McFall. I think there is enough evidence and perhaps you are suggesting that these names should be merged. I had seen it earlier but hesitated because I didn't know if there was enough evidence. But that fact you added the passport info I think means they are the same person. A little happiness fills me when I can merge two people. Cleaning things up. Is that just me??
By the way I read some of the passport info. It appears that Elizabeth's husband was "A worthless fellow" Glad his is a distant relative.
Anyway thank you again. Sometimes it takes me time to look things up. I add them as I find them. This slows me down. I have a poor memory and was told once in my youth the best memory is a pencil and paper. So I try to upload / and document things when I find them if proper and useful for all generations to find. Seem useless for me to say "O look at that!" and "This!" and then move on with out making any record. This is why I like Familysearch. Ancestry's goal is not really to help family's in my opinion. They sort of hide the trees so someone could have done all the work already but each person has to look it up themselves and create a tree. Yes I know, its primarily to have as many people buying subscriptions. Anyway I digress.
Thank you again. As the computer on star trek use to say "WORKING!"
Regards
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20 bags?! You must be glad to have the bulk of that job behind you for the season!
I don't want to overwhelm you with information. I think slowly and methodically working through at your own pace and adding information/documents as you find them is the gold standard, so you'll get no arguments with me there. I'm also in agreement with you about Ancestry. It's a useful repository if you have access, but it also has a lack of checks and balances when it comes to user contributions and accuracy. I like the collaborative nature and shared knowledge that FamilySearch promotes.
I do just want to address a couple of points you raised though, as I think you will find it helpful as you continue your research.
The birthdates currently attached to Hugh Gibson and Margaret Balmer are arbitrary. Someone has simply deducted 25 years from Johnston R Gibson's birthdate. It's a not uncommon practice within the tree, but one I disagree with as it can lead to inadvertent false conclusions. So I wouldn't use it as a reference point in figuring out Mary Ann Gibson's true birthdate. Unfortunately she's not immediately apparent in any census records outside of 1881, to provide another reference point. But personally I would still keep the range of 1835-1844 in mix at this point.
Johnston Gibson however is findable in both the 1861 and 1871 Scotland census records. In 1871 he is living in the Mullin household, Lanarkshire with a birth year of 1849. What's very useful though is the 1861 Census when he is living with his brother, Joseph Gibson (birth recorded as 1848). Joseph had the good grace to get married in Scotland, which means his marriage record is available and lists his parents names (you'll find it attached). Key to this finding is Joseph's birthdate (1831 consistently) which proves that the current marriage date for Hugh Gibson and Margaret Balmer is incorrect, as is their assumed birthdates. Joseph moved between Scotland and England and appears in English census records in which he states he was born in Hillsbourough, County Down, Ireland. Not County Antrim as the erroneous marriage record currently attached to Hugh would suggest.
Interestingly, much like Johnston Gibson, Joseph Gibson and family also appear to be missing from the 1881 census records of Scotland and England. You'll notice Johnston's son William was born in England in 1882, so that might be a clue.
Yes I am suggesting that Elizabeth Ferris (GY84-MWD) and Eliza Ann Ferris (PWV1-BVS) can be merged (and subsequently their respective parents). I too enjoy a good merge clean up! Though out of an abundance of caution I am flagging that there is another Elizabeth McFall that, through records, appears VERY similar though is not the same person. She appears in the 1830 US census as a widow, also born in Glasgow, immigrated in 1927. However her children were born in Scotland and her maiden name is Muir.
Much to digest!
Best Wishes.
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Once again I am reeling with your insights you have found. I have looked the various hits for Joseph. Also read fully the passport info Regarding Elizabeth. It looks like her husband came first then she came but now going home to Scotland due to her husband being worthless and laziness. History its great.
Thank you for the caution of Elizabeth McFall. Also the insights on arbitrary birth dates.
The British connection is interesting your right. They did have connections to Britain. One of Johnathan's sons George https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LZJG-JYV became quite famous and was a director of the Bank of England, he was caught up in some political scandal that caused there to be the Lynskey Tribunal. There is considerable on line with his name associated with it. In the end it seems civil servants like our ancestor lost his job, oddly all politicians got off scott free. History repeating it self I think. In either case England was a main stay it appears of the family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynskey_tribunal
I have wondered where George was Buried but have not found it yet.
We continue to work through the findings.
Again thanks for insights.
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