Can someone help with translating a birth record from Dubne, Malopolskie, Poland? I can make out And
The records are not online but attached are two copies, one for Andreas and one for his brother Mathias, born 1829.
Answers
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Janet,
I only see Mathias:
22 June 1827 born
23 June bapt
House No. 3 Dubne
Child: Mathias (Matvij)
Father: Ivan Kowalicz, village elder
Mother: Maria, dau of Pantelejmon Talpasz of Slotwiny village.
Godparents: Vasyl' Blasczak & Maria Dubnianski.
Tom Peters
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17 July 1827
Andrij
Father: Ivan Kovalicz
Mother: Maria, dau of Pantelejmon Talpasz, farmer in Slotwiny
Godparents: Ivan Dubianski (Dubnianski), village elder in Leluchow; Anna, dau of Petro Polaczek, farmer in Dubne.
Midwife: Maria, wife of Ivan Blaszczak.
Tom Peters
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Janet:
Go to this website as well for records of Dubne and Slotwiny:
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/search.php
When you get to this page, do a CTRL F and type in Dubne or Slotwiny. Click the links on the left hand side. Click on the first image. Use the arrows at the bottom of the screen to navigate forward and backwards. Click the download arrow on the left hand margin to download the images of interest.
Tom
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Thank you very much! I was struggling with this one. That website looks to be very helpful. I can't thank you enough!
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The surname Dubianski/Dubnianski are sometimes interchangeable. Yours appears to be Dubianski. I would go with that.
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Is this website for archives in southern Poland, maybe something like a district capital?
May I ask a few questions: Did you find my ancestor Mathias born 1829 on this website? I could not find it as it appears the records jump from about 1824 to 1831.
I wonder if this is the marriage record for Joannes Kowalicz and Maria in 1814 - image 159 of 435 (http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/search.php), even though Maria's last name is Koperania, perhaps that was from first marriage, which I was unable to locate.
Thank you very much,
Janet
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Janet,
You apparently found the original images on microfilm via familysearch. I copied these as well years ago. The online records are the so called bishop's duplicates. There may be a gap in these. The records you are viewing online are from the Polish State Archive in Przemysl.
To answer your question re the marriage of Joannes Kowalicz, you need to remember to go back to the baptism of your Mathias. His mother is Maria, dau of Pantelemon Talpasz of Slotwiny. Their marriage will be found in the Greek Catholic records of Slotwiny. Of course, I went to the website in Przemysl and view the records of Slotwiny. There is a gap in their marriage records between 1821 and 1838! Since the earliest child born to John Kowalicz and Maria Talpasz is Maria born 1825 in Dubne, I can only assume that they married just before this year in Slotwiny. Their marriage alas is lost.
Here is the birth of Maria Talpasz:
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7370
Image 41/412
9 April 1788 baptized
Maria
Greek Catholic, female, legitimate
Father: Patelejmon Talpasz
Mother: Eva
Godparents: Josephus Huynak & Maria Smetana
Slotwiny Greek Catholic Church Records
This indicates that she was a bit older when she married John Kowalicz. Also explains why only 3 children.
You need to search the deaths of Dubne 1829-1850. You will find the deaths of John Kowalicz, his wife, and his father.
But if you search for the birth of Joannes Kowalicz, you will not find him in the sense that you think.
When you are doing Carpatho-Rusyn research and you are seeking the birth of your ancestor and you believe he was born in a certain year and that there are no indications in the records that he came from another village, you have to assume he is there and you are not "seeing" him.
Sounds very cryptic, I know.
What do we know? We know that your ancestral couple lived in Dubne in House No. 3. The 3 kids baptized in House No. 3. The parents died in House No. 3. Does this mean that Joannes Kowalicz was born in House No. 3? The answer is no. If he is the oldest male in the line, he usually inherits the homestead. Everyone else has to scramble for new housing when they marry. When a man marries, he might live with his bride's parents and inherit. This was not the case here. He might have inherited from an earlier generation or he simply might live with another family as a farm helper. This is all background that you need to know.
It becomes important to study who lives in which houses.
If you look for a Joannes born ca 188-1895 or so, you will come up with some possibilities for his birth. His death age will narrow things down.
Now sometimes when there are too many people in the village with a surname, they will adopt the name of the farm that they live on or sometimes a nickname. Your Joannes Kowalicz was probably born under a different name.
Here is what I think happened:
10 Jan 1792 House No. 7 Dubne: Joannes
Father: Wanio (Joannes) Dubianski
Mother: Weva Gromosz(ka)
3 May 1796 House 8 Dubne: Joseph
Father: Wanio (Joannes) Kowal
Mother: Eva Gromosz of Jastrebik
23 Feb 1800 House No. 8: Anna
Father: Joannes Kowal, scultetus (village elder)
Mother: Eva Gromosz, dau of Ivan Gromosz of Jastrebik
27 Mar 1802 House No. 5 Joseph
Father: Joannes Kowalicz, scultetus
Mother: Eva Gromosz, dau of the scultetus in Jastrebik
11 Oct 1803: Anton
Joannes Kowalicz, Scultetus
Mother: Eva Gromosz, dau of Ivan Gromosz, scultetus in Jastrebik
You will see in the later records that Anton Kowalicz lived for a bit in House No. 3 Dubne.
Therefore my conclusion is the Joannes born in 1792 above in your direct ancestor.
You might consider taking all of the entries for Dubne and putting them on an Excel spreadsheet. You would then be able to sort them every way. I have done this for villages in the Carpathians with excellent results.
If you cannot find the death images for Dubne, just let me know. When you are working with these images, keep in mind they will come in small batches: Leluchow birth, marr, deaths 1790-1800 followed by Dubne, bmd 1790-1800, etc. You have to look at the top of the page in the given sequence. It will give the parish name: Leluchow and follow this by pago Dubne (village Dubne).
Sorry for the length but entirely necessary.
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Thank you for the good explanation. That helps a lot and it is good for me to get this better understanding of Carpatho-Rusyn research.
I found a birth entry for Anastasia 3 Nov 1816 and thought maybe this was their first child, however Elij Talpacz is wrong unless I don't understand the translation:
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7374 (148/435)
House No. 7. Parents Ivanic Kowalicz, Maria nata Elij Talpacz.
There is also Zuzana Kowalicz, 1819; image 151 of 435, also House 7.
If this is correct, could Joannes & Maria lived with his parents in House 7, and later lived in House 3 where my direct ancestor Mathias was born?
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Right now, I am of the opinion that the entry that you found for Anastasia in 1816 is his father's child. The father of Ivan Kowalicz was also Ivan Kowalicz and he lived to a very old age and died also in House No. 3. One of the keys when doing this type of research is to trace all of these children, then look for the deaths of their mother. Almost immediately, the male will marry as he needs someone to care for any younger children and for someone to prepare his meals, etc. You can easily have more than one person in the village with the exact given and surname both having children at the same time, etc. You have to try to sort them all out. Not easy but worth the time to get it as right as you can. Easy to make mistakes.
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Just found this baptism:
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7374
Born 3 July 1820
House No. 7
Marianna
Father: Joannes Kowalski, scultetus
Mother: Maria Talpasz, dau of Pantelejmon
Also a daughter
Zuzanna born 29 Mar 1819 in House 7
Mother is listed as Maria Talpasz
Should be able to find the marriage though in Slotwiny or Dubne
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Looks like that marriage record will help as this gets confusing. Is it safe to assume that if it says mother is Maria, dau of Pantelejmon, that is the one the follow for Mathias' family?
I have started a spreadsheet - thanks for the tip.
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Janet,
I'm going back to the marriage that you mentioned:
6 Feb 1814
House No. 8 Dubne
Groom: Joannes Kowalicz, Greek Catholic, 49, widower
Bride: Maria Kopcza (Kopczania female version), Greek Catholic, 30, widow
Witnesses: Joannes Dubianski, son of the priest and Anton Dubianski, scultetus (village elder)
If this is correct, This Joannes Kowalicz is the father of your Mathias (Matvij) Kowalicz, born 1829.
His father would have been 64 and his mother, 41 (according to her birth in 1788.
After you are done with your spreadsheet, it may all come together.
This would mean that Maria Talpasz, dau of Pantelejmon of Slotwiny, was married to a Kopcza. I don't see this marriage though but it could all make sense.
The same names keep showing up as witnesses, i.e. Anton Dubianski.
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Yes, that would be my assumption.
Further news: Death of Ewa Gromosz Kowalicz
29 Aug 1813 in House No. 8
Ewa, wife of Joannes Kowalicz, Greek Catholic, female, age 35, natural causes
This would give a birthdate of 1778 in Jasztrebik
Joannes Kowalicz, born ca 1765
Joannes then remarries in 1814 of the widow Maria Kopcza (nee Talpasz).
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7370
scan 199/435
You could eventually look at this set of records:
http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7409
Look at the earliest baptisms for children of Joannes Gromosz, scultetus.
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http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7409
Marriage: 23 Nov 1789
House No. 5 Jastrzebik
Groom: Joannes Kowalczyk, scultetus in Dubne, 21y, GC, unmarried
Bride: Ewa, dau of Ivan Gromosz, scultetus, 15y, GC, unmarried
Witnesses: Georgius Dubjanski, scultetus in Dubne; Nicholaus Krynicki, scultetus in Dubne
Scan 31/385
Jastrzebik Greek Catholic Records
Getting much closer
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Yes, this is exciting! Thanks!
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I found that Maria Talpasz' mother was born Eva Kopcza and her father died in 1797. Is it possible they would record her name as Maria Kopcza in this marriage record: 6 Feb 1814, house 8, Joannes Kowalicz, age 49; Maria Kopcza, age 30? 159/435 http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/show.php?zesp=142&cd=0&ser=0&syg=7374. Everything else seems to fit.
Also, I found on FindAGrave that Joannes Kowalicz died 23 Nov 1789 in
Dubne, and Maria Talpasz Kowalicz died 2 Feb 1844. These years for deaths seem to be missing in the Poland State Archive website. Do you suppose these records no longer exist?
Thanks, Janet
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Hi Janet,
I believe you are correct in your assumption that the 1814 marriage is your Joannes Kowalicz marrying Marla Talpasz. She is listed as Maria Kopczania (Kopcza). The rest of the name is a female variant of the surname Kopcza.
It appears that the Dubne records online are duplicates and are incomplete. Many years ago I copied many of the records od Dubne.
The one you need is attached.
Your Joannes Kowalicz is listed on the left side bottom entry in House No. 3. 89 years of age.
His wife on the right side of the page in House No. 3. 65 years of age.
Ages at death are usually incorrect. Usually overstated.
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Thank you very much!
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