Ottenbach ZH - death - 1675 - Sidler - Rudolf
Second to last document:
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den 28.ten Septembris [1675]
Rudi Sÿdler der alt allhir zu Ottenbach
"Rudi Sÿdler der alt" indicates that there is (at least was) a "Rudi der jung" around. Do you know of a suitable candidate? Billeter has this Rudolf bapt. 25.02.1644 - who according to the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis was named Hans Jagli …. have you checked this baptismal date yet? In your blog I find a Hans Rudolf, born 1635???
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I am confused. It sounds like Billeter was wrong on this death entry. Right? If so I found another Rudolf Sidler's burial with his father Hans. It is posted under the wrong one. Let me know if this one works. The entry is date is 1675 August 31.
I am glad you find these errors. Nothing like having correct records!
I can't find a Rudolf Sidler born 25.2.1644 in Ottenbach. However I did find Jagli Sidler and his wife Margaret Rietmann who had a child named Elsbeth on 11 Feb 1644.
What is the English equivalent of Jagli? or is it just Jagli? Could this be Jacob?
I believe "Wagner" Hans Rudolf born 1635 is well documented:
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No - but I'll come back to the death date below.
The error by Billeter (I tried to point out) was connected to the baptismal date 25.02.1644: Billeter has a Rudolf baptised on this date - but according to Bevölkerungsverzeichnis the child's name was Hans Jagli (and this is what I asked you to check - is there a Hans Jagli baptised on this date?).
Yes - Jagli or Jogli is jargon for Jacob.
Jagli Sidler and Margaret Rietmann with their girl bapt. on 11.02.1644 will be another Sidler line - from what I have seen so far I don't see the connection.
I didn't suggest that the data on "Wagner" Hans Rudolf born 1635 were in error: the question was whether he could be the "Rudi der jung" to go with "Rudi Sÿdler der alt" dying 1675 … or do you have an alternative Rudolf Sidler, born after 1612 and (likely) still alive 1675?
Now for the death date in 1675 for Rudolf (Rudi): on 31.08.1675 dies Hannß Rudeli, Hannß Sÿdlers Stehelis allhier eheliches Söhnlein. So this is a young boy - not someone born 1612. Again - a different line - but then I never questioned the death entry of Rudolf (1612-1675) - I questioned the name of the child baptised 25.02.1644.
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WSeelentag There is no Hans Jagli (or Jakob) birth in Ottenbach for 25.02.1644. None.
I don't have a Rudolf Sidler in my line other than Hans Rudolf Sidler, Wagner 1635 - 1710 alive in 1675.
Thanks for looking at Rudolf (Rudi): on 31.08.1675.
So was Rudolf Sidler born 1612 buried on the 28 September 1675? I assume yes.
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There is no Hans Jagli (or Jakob) birth in Ottenbach for 25.02.1644. None.
OK - so we have a problem: Bürgerverzeichnis 1678 (Nr. XXXIII) lists Rudi Seidlers sel Witwe (Vronica Freÿin) with 3 sons - the second one being Hans Jogli, bapt. 25.02.1644 (the date also given by Billeter), married to Anna Gutin - EDB gives 05.12.1672 as marriage date - which is plausible that there are no kids yet. Is the date wrong (and Billeter copied it from the BV) - or is the entry just missing in the baptismal records - or was he baptised somewhere else ???
I don't have a Rudolf Sidler in my line other than Hans Rudolf Sidler, Wagner 1635 - 1710 alive in 1675.
OK - so we will likely just not solve that problem - isn't that important after all.
So was Rudolf Sidler born 1612 buried on the 28 September 1675?
Correct - I don't see any reason to question this.
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I've learned my lesson. Never depend on indexing. 😔When you see Hans Jogli, baptismal document 25.02.1644 you will know why it wasn't indexed properly. I posted the birth on Rudolf's page. The four children's baptisms are in order of their birth: If you translate it I will add it under his birth document.
Thanks for staying with me while I figure this out. It took a wile but we succeeded! 😁
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Great - you have found the "missing link" - which also helps to solve the name problem (Hans Jogli vs. Rudolf).
Den 25.ten Febru(uar) [1644]
(Eltern): Rudi Sÿdler allhir, Veronegk Freÿin
Kind: Hans Joggli
Zeügen: Hanß Jogli (added marked +) Steiner vnd Verena Sigerstin (Sigerist)
I have described the solution on Geneal-Forum: Billeter's misunderstanding will likely have been caused by the subsequent entry of the baptism. The name of the child baptised on 25 February (Hanß Joggli) appears under the entry ‘Kind’ - but in the same line next to it is the name of the father (Rudli) of the child baptised on 3 March.
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Wolf, I'm afraid I made things more confusing. Sorry about that. But in the end you hung in there and helped me find what was missing. I've learned to not depend on indexing. Read the text!
It is interesting how Pastor Hans Kaspar Müller put the entry into a bubble to the side of his normal entries.
To review. Jogli means Jakob. Joggli means Jacob. I'm not sure how this transformation happens but it is important to know because Jogli comes up quite a bit. Is Jogli an old fashioned term used in the 1500s and 1600s?
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Jogli, Joggli, Joggeli, Jagli, … are all slang names for Jakob - lots of different versions depending on the region. Intersting that "Idiotikon" actually mentions (amongst many historic examples) Joggli for Wetzikon in 1670. I am not sure how much these names are still used today, especially in smaller communities with their own dialects. I occasionally hear Joggeli here in St.Gallen.
It is interesting how Pastor Hans Kaspar Müller put the entry into a bubble to the side of his normal entries.
Well - he had obviously forgotten to write it down in time and noticed / corrected this later ;-).
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Thanks Wolf. I have wondered about all those variations on Jakob for a few years. Now I have clarity
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