Johannes Hibernicus Pringel, my oldest ancestor who arrived in Belgium around 1690
Dear Sir or Madam,
(My profile on FamilySearch is [removed by moderator])
I contact you about Johne Pringel (Birth Date: 8 Mar 1666, Link profile: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K898-VCQ
He may be our oldest ancestor arrived in Belgium around 1690.
Here in Belgium we were able to identify this ancestor under the name of Johannes Pringel (via a marriage certificate dated 1695). Johannes being John's Latin translation. He died on January 18, 1732 in the commune of Zaffelare, Lochristi (currently East Flanders, Belgium) which was at the time a commune belonging to the Netherlands (see below).
According to genealogical research by my uncle (made between 1980 and 2000), we do not know the date of his birth (nor the place), but we think what would be likely between 1660 and 1675.
Johannes was the oldest known ancestor of the Pringels family in Belgium.
Thanks to my DNA test, it was possible to demonstrate the membership of our family here in Belgium (current spelling of our name: Pringels) to the Pringle family in Scotland.
There is thus another plausible hypothesis about the arrival in Belgium of Johannes Pringel. This comes from what is explained about George Pringle (1631-1689) which would have lived for several years in Holland (see the following page: https://www.artwarefineart.com/gallery/portrait-george-pringle-1631-1689 )
Based on the principle that George would not go to live alone in this country but left with his family, it is then possible that he had children during these years spent in Holland and which would not be taken up in the old acts of Scottish births , births then listed by the Dutch administration of the time?
Is it possible to link Johne Pringel to Johannes Pringel or would it be possible to find the date of birth in the archives of the Netherlands as well as its place of birth (perhaps in the region of Amsterdam)?
Can I then ask you if you have additional information about Johannes Pringel which would allow us to fill the lack of information before 1695 in the family tree of our family here in Belgium?
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Jean-Jacques Pringels
Answers
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You use the words possible nad plausible quite appropriately. When dealing with records that old, it is often very difficult to be reasonably sure that you have identified the correct person especially when people moved around.
To illustrate my point, I have identified a candidate for my paternal line born in the late 1600s. But, because he came from a place some 12 miles from where he had children, I remain nervous whether I have the right person. I feel that the probability he is correct may be around 60% but I think this is too low.
You mention a DNA test. Is that a Y DNA test?
I have removed the link to your personal profile. This is not generally accessible anyway as you are a living person. If you want to display your own line, you need to give a link to a deceased person such as your father (?) or grandfather.
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Hello Graham,
My DNA test was of the Big Y-700 type and was compared with other Pringle family members still living today. Together we share ancestors near 1500 AD and 1350 AD. One of them know precisely who were his ancestor around 1500 (thank to a genealogical family book and family tree).
With these informations and based on what we can see in our ancient family tree (here on FamilySearch.org), it appears that one of our ancestors born in 1435 is the one from which many of us come in our today family. This of course remains an observation that you too can discover (starting form Johne Pringel in my case and if he was the same person as Johannes Pringel in Belgium). His name was James Hoppringle Fifth Laird of Smailholm and Second Laird of Pilmair. You can see the family tree I'm talking about by opening the following link : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GQ1H-9L9
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Jean-Jacques Pringels
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Forgive me as I know a little about Y DNA tests but not a lot. As I understand it, mutations in the DNA can help you estimate where your line may join another person's line but not with absolute precision. So this allows you, as you have said, to know that you are linked to the Scottish Pringels but not precisely how. This supports the hypothesis that Johne Pringel is your ancestor but, in my view (for what it is worth!), I feel that remains too much uncertainty to feel confident that you have the right person.
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Hello Graham,
Johne Pringel from Scotland is an excellent candidate to be Johannes Hibernicus Pringel in Belgium since the last name matches and Johannes in Latin translates to John in English (is Johne a spelling error or just another way of writing John?). On his profile there is no information about his death, no date and no location. This correspondence hypothesis therefore seems plausible. Here is the link to his profile: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K898-VCQ
This path is all the more possible since Johannes had given the Latin first name of Guillelimus to his son which in English translates as William. William was the great-grandfather of Johne Pringel according to the family tree.
As the profiles of the father and grandfather of Johne indicate no place of death, it is possible that one of them migrated to Ireland perhaps in the early 1600s or around 1650 or later but before 1670 since Johne's date of birth is 1666 and location in Scotland. I am talking about a (possible) passage to Ireland because of the mention "Hibernicus" in the name of Johannes Hibernicus Pringel.
The profile of Johannes is here : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/G7GF-X3Y
There is more information about him on this page and in the "sources" option in the top menu as :
"Johannes (Hibernicus) Pringel was probably born in Ireland and, following recent DNA testings, before him his ancestors came from Scotland (Hap'group R1b - Family A - Hoppringle Family of Scotland - https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Pringle?iframe=ycolorized. "
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Jean-Jacques Pringels
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Ultimately it is your decision whether you feel that the case is strong enough to accept it as correct. In family history, even with more modern records, it is difficult to be 100% sure so one has to take a personal view on how certain you want to be. Personally, while I agree that you have a good case, I remain of the view that the possibility of it being wrong to too high to accept it.
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Hello Graham,
As I said yesterday, Johne Pringel is a good candidate to have become Johannes Pringel in Belgium. Of course, this is just a hypothesis to be proven or not.
Using the profile of Johne Pringel ( https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K898-VCQ ). This profile was added by an authorized FamilySearch individual. I then opened the profile of his father (John Pringel, profile also created by someone from FamilySearch) and again that of his grandfather (John Pringall: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9929-RRF ) This time this profile was modified by "unknown4470317" in 2012 and also modified by "Doug Straiton" several times in 2023. "MechamDonaldLee2" also intervened several times in 2023 to modify this profile. In these numerous modifications, there is mention of a publication in Vital • Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 (see this link: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CM4F-9V2M ) which talks about Johne Pringel who is included in the tree by John Pringall who I spoke about just before and who would therefore be the same person (Johne Pringel's grandfather).
The number of modifications to John Pringall's profile is significant and therefore made by several contributors (a person from FamilySearch also intervened). See the page: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/changelog/9929-RRF
I don't know how to get in touch with these different people and therefore be able to ask them if they don't have additional information that could be found about his 5 children including John Pringel who would be the father of Johne Pringel (or maybe Johannes Pringel)?
Can you help me on this so maybe I can reinforce this possible hypothesis or rule it out?
Thank you in advance, I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Jean-Jacques Pringels
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