Would the 2nd Simon mentioned refer to the father or one of the twins in 1662 Alsace birth record?

Tom Randolph

Simon Roth is the father of twins, but it then refers to 'Simons Godparents', so am not sure if this would be the name of one of the twins or referring again to the father. Also, would appreciate suggestions for the three other bolded words that I could not identify. I have seen the word genothtauff once before, but haven't found it in any dictionary. It seems to refer to an immediate baptism, perhaps in the home. Has anyone seen it before?

2.Mitwoches den 16 Aprilij wurde Simon Rothen dem Wagner und Eva seiner haußfrawen 2 zwilling genothtauff, Und folger den Sontag Jubilate in der kinderlehr der geineme ho?entirt; Waren deß Simons Gevatern Ich der Pfarrer Selbst, so datd Hr. Joh. Heinrich Wießheimer, Pfarrer zu Pfuhlgrießheim, Und J. Salome, deß Trommonschlagers stieftochter. †

:Note: 16 Apr 1662 in the Julian calendar was a Wednesday, and converts to 26 Apr 1662 in the Gregorian calendar. The birth date likely fell during the period 24-26 Apr 1662.

 Translation

:Year: With God 1662. [heading above on same page]

:Entry no.: 2.

:Wednesday the 16 April [Julian calendar] Simon Roth the Wagonmaker and Eva his wife had 2 twins baptized [at birth], and subsequently on Sunday Jubilate [20 Apr that year] in the children’s class ?? ??: The Godparents of Simon? are Pastor Selbst, so ?? Honorable Heinrich Wießheimer, Pastor at Pfuhlgrießheim, and Maiden Salome, Trommonschlager’s stepdaughter.

:† [indicate one or both twins died young; in fact both died 8 days later]

Source: Archives d’Alsace; Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin; Lampertheim - Registres Paroissiaux (Avant 1793) - Paroisse protestante et catholique (Avant 1793) - Registre de baptêmes mariages sépultures 1634-1680 - 3 E 256/2; https://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C255-P21-R164334#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C255-P21-R164334-1286384; Image 47 of 91

Robert Seal_1

Hello Tom,

genothtauff = emergently baptized = baptized by means of an emergency baptism because the child was in danger of dying.

Nothtaufe = emergency baptism.

Robert Seal_1

Hi Tom,

Here's my attempt at the third line: in der Kinderlehr der gemeine praesentirt

Perhaps translates along the lines of: the twins were emergently baptized at birth and then were presented to the parish community/congregation the following Sunday during the Kinderlehr

"Kinderlehr" from Wörterbuchnetz: https://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/?sigle=ElsWB&lemid=L01130

This comes from a dictionary of Alsation dialects.

Robert Seal_1

Hi Tom,

RE: but where would the 'myself' come from? 

Note that the word "selbst" is not capitalized. Compare the capital "S" in "Simon" to the lower-case initial "s" in "selbst".

I am interpreting the word "selbst" not as the pastor's surname but the word "myself", thus:

Ich der Pfarrer selbst = I the pastor myself OR me the pastor myself.

Ulrich Neitzel

@Tom Randolph

Re: the word Gevatter there is a long article in Grimm's Wörterbuch (https://woerterbuchnetz.de/?sigle=DWB&lemid=G13009). The interesting point is that the word "Gevatter" originally referred to the relationship to the parents (as a co-parent) whereas "Pate" refers to the relationship to the baptized child. In this sense it would be correct for the pastor here to be called Simon's (i.e., the children's father's) Gevatter. It is strange, however, that no names are given for the twins.

Tom Randolph

@Robert Seal_1 : many thanks for confirming that! Any thoughts on the words I couldn't make out?

Robert Seal_1

The image hasn't appeared yet and the link doesn't take me to the image.

Tom Randolph

@Robert Seal_1 : let me try uploading it again

Tom Randolph

@Robert Seal_1 : that makes perfect sense. And yes, I had found kinderlehr in that dictionary that you had introduced me a ways back! Any thoughts on the last word I wasn't sure of: what I read as 'datd'? And does the naming of Simon before godparents make sense to you?

Robert Seal_1

Hi again Tom,

Word at the end of the fourth line could be: dan (with a line over the "n") making the word "dann = then

So the phrasing would be: the godparents are I the pastor myself, so then Honorable Heinrich Wießheimer, Pastor at Pfuhlgrießheim, and maiden Salome . . .

I know it doesn't say in this record that one of the twins was named Simon but it seems the godparents would be in reference to one of the twins.

Tom Randolph

@Robert Seal_1 : that makes sense, but where would the 'myself' come from? And have you seen the father's name repeated as in 'Simons godparents'?

Robert Seal_1

Thank you for this explanation of "Gevatter", Ulrich.

Tom Randolph

@Ulrich Neitzel : Interesting! And kudos to you for tracking that down! Sometimes there was reluctance to name a child who didn't look like they were likely to survive -- though I thought baptism required naming.