Affoltern BE - baptism - 1717 - Tschirki - unknown word

Mediatoaster

I have an ancestor I'm researching and I keep seeing a word come up following his name, related to his location. I've yet to get results from any translation attempts or searches. I noticed it randomly by another person's name in a completely different church register and figured I should ask. I'm at a loss.

In this case, it comes at the end of the ancestor's name "Frantz Carli Tschiati aus der Landschatt Schwitz im ...."

This is from pg.343 of the Affoltern im Emmental church book "K Affoltern 3 Taufrodel (1661-1721), Eherodel (1655-1721), 1661-1721 (Archiveinheit)"

Any help is appreciated.

Eric

Daniel57704

Perhaps I am speculating too heavily: Franz Tschirky and Anna Roth could have been Catholic because of their origins. Because this caused problems in Protestant Affoltern, Franz converted and this was recorded here with 'prohelyt'. However, the priest made a spelling mistake and it should be 'Proselyt' (see Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselyte).

In any case, more examples might be helpful!

WSeelentag

The original topic title "Translation request - can't find the meaning of this word" has been adapted to better reflect the discussion topic - see the suggestion on https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/129680/what-title-would-be-best-for-postings.

I read Frantz Carli Tschirki auß der Langdschafft Schwitz ein pahelyt(?)

Anna Roth von Krummenau auß dem Toggenburg.

"Tschirki" because Tschirky would be a Swiss name (Tschiaki just sounds wrong) - citizens of Weisstannen (today) in canton St.Gallen - as is Krummenau in the Toggenburg valley. The father just may have lived in Schwyz.

Now for the unknown word: I read "pahelyt" - but cannot explain it either. I don't think, however, it is related to a location - rather a description of the father, a denomination or profession or … You write you have seen this word in other entries as well: could you give examples?

WSeelentag

@Daniel57704 ... I guess you have the solution. I had considered an "S" - but came to the conclusion it is an "H" ... didn't consider the possibility of a spelling error.

Agreed - more examples would be even more interesting now to see whether the spelling error was accidentally or permanent.

Anna Roth will most likely have been reformed: Krummenau was a reformed parish. There was a small catholic population in Nesslau (today merged with Krummenau) attending church in Neu-St.Jojann.

Mediatoaster

I have found a few more examples if you'd like:

1. Burgdorf - Pg.231 (1715) "K Burgdorf 8 Taufrodel (Ausburger) (1608-1726), Eherodel (1700-1726), Totenrodel (1706-1726), 1608-1726 (Archiveinheit)"

2. Krauchthal - Pg.73 (1727) "K Krauchthal 3 Taufrodel, Eherodel, Totenrodel, 1712-1752 (Archiveinheit)"

It appears Franz moved around frequently, or at least baptized his children in different churches around Bern, while mostly being noted as "of Moos by Thunstetten". More children were baptized with far less documentation at Dürrenroth 1719, Herzogenbuchsee 1724, Thunstetten 1725-31 and Walkringen 1733 before being buried in Muri bei Bern in 1756 at the age of 81.

Thank you for the great responses

WSeelentag

Thank you!

In Burgdorf I would again read "Prohelyt" - at least the "Pro…" is clear here. He is from Lachen (canton Schwyz). The mother is Anna Schwitzer here (he married Anna Roth two years later).

In Krauchthal I actually read "Proselyt".

In both cases I definitely read "Chiati" as surname: was Tschirky a wrong assumption, assuming Frantz Carl was Swiss … was he possibly Italian?

WSeelentag

Whilst the situation "H vs S" is different - my contributions on the "pastoral S" might still be of interest:

https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/473315/#Comment_473315

https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/473880/#Comment_473880

Daniel57704

The longer I'm searching for clarification of Franz's last name, the less convinced I am of Tschirky. It is clear that in his time the names were written as they were pronounced. That is why we find different spellings in different places, but they all have roughly the same pattern: Chiati, Chiatti, Tschiati, Schiati. The Register of Swiss Surnames ( https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/famn/index.php?lg=e ) does not find any results on these names, not even on slight variations. This does not necessarily prove anything, but it does suggest that Franz was not Swiss. Like WSeelentag, I assume that he was Italian.

To check if there are still people with a similar name today, I searched the phone book of Switzerland. There are no hits for Chiati, Tschiat(t)i, Schiati, Giat(t)i or Ghiat(t)i. But for Schiatti there are 3 persons with the name Schiattino. And to my surprise, there is even a woman named Chiatti! Even if the result does not stand up to scientific criteria and a relationship is unlikely, I conclude that the name existed in earlier times and that Franz might have been called Chiat(t)i.

@WSeelentag I think the example of Affoltern shows very well how easy it was for pastors to switch between the 'German Kurrent' and Latin writing.

Mediatoaster

@Daniel57704 I'm not sure what to make of this, but more searching has shown that a few records have listed children of Franz with "Carli" as their last name or even "Carl Chiati"

1. Pg. 41, Muri bei Bern, "K Muri 7 Eherodel, 1753-1812 (Archiveinheit)"

2. Pg. 45, Muri bei Bern, "K Muri 7 Eherodel, 1753-1812 (Archiveinheit)"

3. Pg. 109, Muri bei Bern, "K Muri 12 Totenrodel, Admissions-Rodel (Communion-Rodel), 1743-1798 (Archiveinheit)"

WSeelentag

Hmmm ... according to the Register of Swiss Surnames we have (since before 1800) families which are (now) spelled Carl, Carle, Carlen, Carlo or Karli. Could it be that the Chiati was just a nickname?

Sorry - I'm stuck. There is no guarantee that someone will have the solution - but on https://www.geneal-forum.com/ you'd get a much larger readership of Swiss resident researchers. Why not try it? Registration is free and without any obligation - and English is fine.

Daniel57704

Interesting indeed! Maybe the pastors didn't know how to handle multiple names back then either? I don't know either, but in any case I recommend you to take WSeelentag's suggestion.