Locate 1861 Birth record "John Reichardt Joseph Gartner"
Hi,
I am trying to find a German Birth record that my late mother had recorded in her handwritten notes.
My Great Grandfathers name is:
John Richard Joseph Gartner (anglized version) as appears on his grave stone
Born 1860 (abt)
Died: 13 Dec 1896 Port Pirie, South Australia, Australia.
This is a transcription from my mother’s notes.
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John Reichardt Joseph Gartner
September 20 1861
Parents: Joseph and Maria Elisabeth (Heydrich)
M 18.07.1857
State P. P. Rheinland
Dusseldorf Stadt Civil
Batch M992695 Film no M933/8 137
Serial Sheet 608-8 204
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How do I locate this record?
And details of town/parish?
Regards Chris Gartner
Comments
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Here's a link to a birth record for Joseph Gaertner, born in Düsseldorf, 20 September 1861 but the mother is not the one you mentioned. Is it possible the father was married again, and the Maria Elisabeth you mention is the second wife, who then raised the child of the first wife?
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The index for the 1857 civil marriage record of his parents is available on both familysearch and ancestry. Unfortunately, neither has a digitized version.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JH98-85D
It might be possible to view the actual images (of the marriage record and the 20 Sep 1861 birth record sylvia referenced which is on film 937469 Image Group Number 8655342) in the Salt Lake City familysearch library or use their look up service to get a copy of the image. This might provide additional information to ensure you find the right birth record.
Or it may be best to contact the civil vital records office for Dusseldorf and request copies of the marriage record and birth record.
The records above are all civil records. Archion has some Duesseldorf lutheran church records for that time period. If they were lutheran, the marriage and birth may also be recorded in the church records.
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There are some church books from Düsseldorf and surrounding areas online.
In one of them (St. Lambertus), there is a Joseph Gärtner born on September 20th, 1861 (birth no. 240). His parents are Joseph Gärtner and Anna Jenne.
Regards, Christine
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Also this person could possibly be an option if the couple were catholic:
Gerhard Joseph Gartner, baptized January 15th, 1860 [at St. Maximilian, Düsseldorf], son of Joseph Gartner and Elisabeth Heidenreich.
Regards, Christine
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One issue is that the 1857 marriage in your mother's notes are for a different couple than those in the 20 September 1861 birth record in your mother's notes.
The 1857 marriage record is for Maria Elizabeth Heiderich (sometimes spelled differently such as Heydrich or Heidriech) (LHJ9-YKV and MJFR-236) and a Joseph Gaertner, son of Franziska Theresa Gaertner (father not indexed). They have a number of children including the Gerhard Joseph Gartner, baptized January 15th, 1860 given by @hehesani63 above.
So the 20 September 1861 is clearly a different couple.
Somehow, you need to figure out the correct birthdate or parents names for your Joseph. Otherwise you won't be able to tell who is the correct Joseph.
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Thank everyone for the quick responses and suggestions
I had checked the family search records for Maria Elisabeth Heydrich/Heidrich and Joseph Gartner/Gaertner
and there seemed 2 possibilities in the marriage records that are digitized..
Joseph Gaertner (MJFR-2S1) married Maria Elisabeth Heydrich (MJFR-236)
18 JUL 1857 Duesseldorf Stadt,Rheinland,Prussia
No children listed in Family Search
Joseph Gaertner (KZRB-VJW) married Maria Elisabeth Heiderich (LHJ9-YKV)
18 July 1857 Düsseldorf, Rhineland, Prussia, Germany
5 Children listed in Family Search
(Note, some other family trees on other sites, reference this couple as emigrating to America)
They seems to be similar or duplicate records, but the parents of Maria Elisabeth are different.
Joseph Gaertner (MJFR-2S1) has Franziska listed as mother (no father listed)
Joseph Gaertner (KZRB-VJW) does not list any parents.
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As far as our understanding of my Great Grandfather "John Richard Joseph Gartner" in Australia, we only have his marriage in Australia and the inquest/newspaper article of his tragic death at Port Pirie, South Australia.
His details on his grave https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/196496770/john-richard_joseph-gartner
The Birth date is probably an approximation and his age wasn't listed on the wedding certificate. I look from 1859 to 1862 in other searches
We also understand that he was an orphan from a very young age.
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The passenger lists to Australia dont always list every passenger, some just had a total for Passengers in "Steerage Class". This has also hampered our searches of how he (and parents) came to Australia.
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I will investigate all suggestion, but i am thinking that if this record does exist it is probably not digitized.
That is my roadblock in identifying this particular ancestor.
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Hi
I just have two questions for better understanding:
(1) Was there any information in your family that John Richard Joseph actually came from Düsseldorf or the surrounding area or could he have been born anywhere in Germany?
(2) Is there more information on the original marriage certificate of John Richard Joseph than what can be seen on the internet? For example the date of the marriage?
Regards, Christine
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Hi Christine,
Thank you for your reply and I apologise that I had not seen your message earlier.
I hadn't logged in to this site for a little while.
(1) Unfortunately the only family history of John Richard Joseph is that he was orphaned from a young age, as was his son (my grandfather). That is why we have little history handed down through the generations.
We do not know that he was born or came from Dusseldorf, only that this was the note written in my late mothers notes. Dusseldorf may have been just where the record was stored.
(2) The Wedding Certificate did not list a Birthplace.
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Hi,
Thanks for the photos of the sources. Just one more question: Is there any indication as to when Joseph emigrated to Australia? If there was, maybe you would have a chance to find German sources about the emigration.
Regards, Christine
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No we scoured the Passenger lists and we could not locate any record to match His name or the parents on my mothers note. Many ship logs have a total number of passengers in Steerage without a detail list,
The first record we could find is an 1879 Electoral Roll in Lakeview Illawara, NSW, Australia.
But left a big gap between hid birth 1857 to 1879 which we cannot find any history (Birth, Emigration etc)
I understand a lot of the passenger records from the Bremen port in Germany were lost, so that doesnt help/
Our hope was to start with the possible birth records of my previous comment.
Regards Chris Gartner
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Hi,
Thank you for posting the documents. Now I understand better.
I had looked more into the family of this Joseph Gaertner KZRB-VJW because I wondered whether the German names "Richard" and "Gerhard" could have been mixed up.
It is possible that Joseph Gaertner and his wife might have died early (1867, 1869). I found death entries that I assume could be theirs.
But unfortunately of their five children it is only the first, Joseph Hubert M618-D7R, who can later be found living, marrying and dying at Düsseldorf. I will put links to the documents in his entry on familysearch.
Good luck with your search.
Regards, Christine
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