1857 document, also has the date of 1824
Translation request:
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Thode translates Taufzettel as baptismal certificate - which doesn't quite fit here: it is not an official certificate, but a "memory note" (?) given by the godfather to the child.
The meaning of the date on top is completely unclear to me: Mitwoch 21. Weinmonat 1857 [Wednesday 21 Oct 1857].
The text in the centre box seems to be a bit out of sequence - I'll try to put it in a meaningful sequence.
Dies wünsche ich, dein getreuer Tauf-Götti Hs. Jacob Bachmann ab dem Wiliberg, der Tauf-Goten Elisabeth Bachmann ab dem Wiliberg. Den 11ten Tag Herbstmonat im Jahr 1824 bist du getauft worden zu Reitnau, das Geburt Zeichen ist der Wieder (= Widder?? - doesn't fit the date!)
I wish this, your faithful godfather Hans Jacob Bachmann ab dem Wiliberg, to the baptized Elisabeth Bachmann ab dem Wiliberg. On the 11th day of September in the year 1824 you were baptized in Reitnau, the birth sign is the ram (doesn't fit the date!).
So this is not for Jacob Bachmann, but Elisabeth … Hans Jacob Bachmann is the godfather.
Likely because the text in the centre box was confusing, the info is repeated on the bottom (with some additional info):
Den 11ten Tag Herbstmonat 1824 hats der Herr auf diese Welt geschafen Abents um fünf Uhr.
On the 11th day of September 1824, the Lord brought her to this world in the evening at five o'clock.
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Just had another idea - though I don't believe in astrology 😉. In astrology there are "ascendents" (same as the zodiacs) within a zodiac, depending on hour of birth and the like (I really!! don't know). So what Jacob Bachmann could have meant is that Elisabeth was born in the ascendent of ram within the zodiac virgo.
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WSeelentag Wow, you are amazing. Here is what I know:
5 Bachman's were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on 17 October 1857, Jacob (my great great grandfather) , his wife Elisabeth Sutter, his brother Hans Rudolf, his father, Hans Rudolf and stepmother Margaretha. All baptized in the Reuss River, in Ottenbach according to the membership record or in Wiliberg according to the missionaries.
Four days later: Elisabetha age 33 living in Wiliberg, born 11 September 1824, in Reitnau, baptized, 21, Oct 1857 in Ottenbach, baptized by John Naef and conformed by J Woodard, in the Reuss River, Ottenbach. (Note: This is the older sister to Jacob), source: film 128145 page 24,
Note: The Church Membership records give the name of the river where baptisms took place.
From this document it appears Jacob's father Hans Rudolf is congratulating Elisabetha on being baptized 11 September 1824. That is the day she was born. Then when she is baptized into the church someone adds the date of 11 Oct 1857 to the original document. This makes perfect sense now.
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From this document it appears Jacob's father Hans Rudolf is congratulating Elisabetha on being baptized 11 September 1824.
There is no Hans Rudolf mentioned - godfather is Hans Jacob.
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WSeelentag, Thanks for the map. Very nice quality!
I needed to think about this for a while and finally have an answer. Hans Jacob (KZWH-ZDZ) was Jacob Bachman's (b 1830) great uncle. He was born in 1806 and died in 1868 or eleven years after the five Bachman family members were baptized. Hans Jacob lived in the area. If the handwriting is the same it is Jacob offering congratulations. If not the same handwriting, someone else is making a record of her second baptism.
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