Is their anyone that can help me with translation of this document? See attached. Especially with th
Answers
-
@karenrasmussen karenrasmussen could you please tell us the country (Danish?)parish and date of this record. The first descriptive word is udbygger.
0 -
Yes, sorry here is the source: : Rigasarkivet/ Bornholm Amt/ Povlsker Sogn/ Enesteministerialbog 1688 FKVD- 1812 FKVD / image 256 of 357, pg 251, year 1791 https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065113
I have two Niels Jensens. I am trying to figure out if they are the same person, different persons, parents names, etc. One set of parents appears to be Jens Nielsen and Ane Nielsen. The other set of parents appears to be Jens Nielsen and Ane (something else)
0 -
Denmark
0 -
According to the 1861 Danish-English Dictionary, page 336 right hand column-7th word from the bottom, here: https://books.google.com/books?id=S4gCAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false an udbygger is a cottager living in remote parts.
The mother's name, Ane, is given here, but her last name is not given in this birth record. These birth records only give the mother's first name followed by a phrase that appears to be "hamdt nu son" or "hamdt nu datter", which I believe means "his new son (or daughter)".
Danish Family Search (in the links to the right), has really good and fairly simple to use records for Danish censuses. You have to sign up (it's free) to be able to look at the records, but it is a very good website for searching in Denmark. There is an indexed 1801 census for Bornholm that may be able to help you figure out your problem.
0 -
It is difficult for me to be helpful without knowing your starting point(family or individual). Can you give me a "known". Such as a spouse, child, a residence and year and then we can go from there to sort out those individuals with the same name but not the same person. Was your first image your "known" and you are trying to move from there?
0 -
Known starting point is Peter Nielsen, KWJ8-GWM. I feel good about him down. I feel good about his parents, Niels Jensen and Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdotter. I am not feeling confident that the familytree has identified the correct parents for Niels Jensen PID M52F-GR1. I am not feeling confident that FamilySearch has identified the correct birthdate for Niels Jensen. See attached 2 scenarios.
0 -
attachement wont work
0 -
Do not have a good way to show you the 2 scenarios
0 -
Here is the 1834 census for Gjertrude Kristine Pedersdatter and husband Niels Jensen. Niels is born about 1788 so the FamilySearch individual is clearly not the correct one. (born in 1775).
0 -
1822 Marriage record in Povlsker for Niels Jensen 34, and widowed
Giertrud Kirstine Pedersdatter 38. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94Q-LFTH?i=102&cc=2078555Niels was from a village named Duegaard in Povlsker.
0 -
Yes I have this information is there a way I can email you the timeline document?
0 -
1840 Census for Niels Jensen and family in Bodilsker, note his age isn't exactly what it should be but this is the correct family.
0 -
1845 Census still in Bodilsker. This record helps improve upon Ingeborg's name.
0 -
1850 Census
And the same family in the 1855. It's amazing.
Niels 65, Gjertrud K. Pedersen 74 and Ingeborg Mar. Pedersen 34.
0 -
Sorry, I need to be more clear. The problem is further back generationaly. Let me write it up as a narrative and I will post it. I very much appreciate your help, but don't want to waste your time either.
0 -
Currently Niels Jensen (M52F-GR1) appears in the FamilySearch Family Tree as born 2 April 1775 Povlsker, Bornholm, Denmark and christened 25 July 1779 Povlsker, Bornholm, Denmark. His parents are listed as Jens Nielsen and Ane Nielsen. The purpose of this narrative is to examine if the above information is correct…both the birth and christening dates and the parents.
From autobiographical materials and Danish Census Records, we learn that Niels Jensen (M52F-GR1) and Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdatter (L71X-152) are the parents of Peter Nielsen (KWJ8-GWM). The family appears in the 1840 Denmark Census as:
1840 Denmark Census
DGS 103918465, image 1281 of 2159, pg 174
Bodilsker, Bornholm, Denmark
145 ___/ / Niels Jensen/ age; 58/ male/ married/ Birth: 1782/Head
Gertrude Petersd/ female/ age: 62/ married/ birth : 1778/ wife
Ingeborg Nielsen/ female/ age: 20/ single/ born: 1820/ child
Peder Nielsen/ male/ age: 16/ single/ born: 1824/ child
This is a second marriage for Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdatter and Ingeborg Nielsen is one of the daughters from her previous marriage. The family moved from Povlsker where Peter was born to Bodilsker in 1826.
No. 42/ Niels Jensen/ age: 40/ Occupation: ? / Moving to: Bodilsker /Fol 3.
No. 43/ Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdot/ age: 46 years/ Occupation: ? / Moving to Bodilsker / Fol 3
No. 44/ Ingeborg Marie/ age: 7/ Occupation: / Moving to Bodilsker/ Fol 3
No. 45/ Peder Nielsen/ age 2 3/4/ Occupation: none/ moving to: Bodilsker / Fol 3.
[Source: Rigaskivet/ https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=21583766#355122,70372156 / Polvsker Sogn/ Kontraministerialbog
(1813-2002)/ Til og afganslister 1826-Til of afgansliter 1846/ image 40 of 78/ Afgangslifte]
From the available records, we accumulate the possible birthdates for Niels Jensen (M52F-GR1) below:
Calculated from marriage: 1789-1784 (34? 39?)
Calculated from move to Bodelsker: 1786
Calculated from 1840 Denmark Census: 1782
Calculated from 1845 Denmark Census: 1790
Calculated from 1850 Denmark Census: 1790
Calculated from 1860 Denmark Census:1788
Calculated from 1870 Denmark Census: 1790
Calculated from death record: 1787
From this information, it seems very unlikely that Niels Jensen the spouse of Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdatter could be the same person as the Niels Jensen born in 1775 to Jens Nielsen and Ane .
[Source: Rigsarkivet/ Bornholms Amt/ Polsker Sogn/ Enesteministerialbog 1688 FKVD- 1812 FKVD / image 181 of 357, pg 177, 1775 year.]
And christened in 1779 https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065058
It seems more likely that the Niels Jensen, spouse of Gjertrud Kirstine Pedersdatter was born between 1782-1790, likely closer to 1790. It seems more likely that he is this Niels Jensen born in 1791
Rigasarkivet/ Bornholm Amt/ Povlsker Sogn/ Enesteministerialbog 1688 FKVD- 1812 FKVD / image 256 of 357, pg 251, year 1791
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065121
Now the question remains… Are the parents of the Niels Jensen born 1775 and the Niels Jensen born 1790 the same couple? Or a different couple?
The names of the first couple are fairly well documented to be Jens Nielsen and Ane Nielsdatter as follows:
Christening of daughter Karen Kirstine Jensen (LHKM-6V1) https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065044
Christening of daughter Ingeborn Margarethe Jensen (KN8J-611) https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065070
Christening of daughter Gjertrud Jensen (Kn8N-M9K) https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065101
1787 Denmark Census:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=991#991,58631
Denmark, Bornholm, Povlsker
image 16 or 24, written page 243 (crossed out 247)
#12/ Jens Nielsen/ Mand (man)/ age: 38/
Anne Nielsdr/ Pigon/ Hustru (wife)/ age: 39
Karen Jensdr/ age 11
Ingeborg Jensdr/ age 4
Gertrud Jensdr/ age 1
Karen Gudbergsdr/ Mandrus mother Man's mother/ age: 71
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=26621#26621,2906092
image 8/20 1801 Denmark Census, Polvsker, Bornholm, Denmark
No. 27/ 39h/ Jens Nielsen/ Mand/ age: 53/
Ane Nelsdtr/ age: 54
Jens Jensen/ age: 10
Karen Gubbertsdtr/ Mandens Mother/ age: 88
Problems to reconcile:
1) What happened to the son, Niels Jensen born in 1775, as he is not listed in the 1787 or 1801 census? Could this be the possible death record for the Niels Jensen born 1775?
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065075
2) Who is the Jens Jensen, age 10 listed in the 1801 Denmark Census in this family? No birth for a Jens Jensen, son of Jens Nielsen and Ane Nielsen between 1792 and 1801 has been located. Count this Jens Jensen actually be the second Niels Jenson born 1791?
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065113
If the Niels Jensen born 1791 is not a child in this family, who are his parents? What is the word listed on his christening record after Ane? (kind of looks like Sarah? Jensdr? ??) This same word appears in the birth of Peder Jensen who is obviously a sibling of Niels Jensen born 1791. Peder’s christening is found here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17117698#154553,75065121
But if Peder and Niels are siblings, why is Peder (born 1794) not listed in the 1801 Census of this family?
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=26621#26621,2906092
image 8/20 1801 Denmark Census, Polvsker, Bornholm, Denmark
No. 27/ 39h/ Jens Nielsen/ Mand/ age: 53/
Ane Nelsdtr/ age: 54
Jens Jensen/ age: 10
Karen Gubbertsdtr/ Mandens Mother/ age: 88
The death place showing in FamilySearch does not make any sense? Did Peder Jensen die prior to the 1801 Census?
The BIG question is what is that word after ANE in Niels and Peters chirstening records? Why is she not called Ane Nielsdatter?
0 -
I did find the death of Peter in 1795
0 -
My current conclusion is that there is just one couple: Jens Nielsen and his wife Ane.
They had 6 children:
Niels Jensen b 1775 who died young
Karen Kirstine Jendatter 1776
Ingeborg Margarethe Jensdotter 1783
Gjertrud Jensdotter 1787
Niels Jensen 1791 (the actual father of Peder Nielson)
Peder Jensen b. 1794 d. 1795
I sure wish I could read the Danish. But I think this makes enough sense to start straightening things up in the Family Tree.
0 -
re:
"2) Who is the Jens Jensen, age 10 listed in the 1801 Denmark Census in this family? No birth for a Jens Jensen, son of Jens Nielsen and Ane Nielsen between 1792 and 1801 has been located. Count this Jens Jensen actually be the second Niels Jenson born 1791?"
Yes, I think there is a good chance that this 10 year old Jens is actually Niels from the birth record with your original question. Two of the witness for that birth in 1791 are listed in this image from the 1801 census in Povlsker-1- Ole Ipsen above Jens Nielsen's family and 2- Mogens Nielsen listed below Jens' family. This certainly doesn't "prove" that they are the same people, but I think it is a very good possibility that they are same.
0 -
This index of the 1787 census may be the proof you need to show that 10 year old Jens (1801 census) is the same as Niels born in 1791. The family is obviously made up of the same people you have mentioned in your previous post. But included in both of the censuses, (1787 and 1801) is the mother of Jens Nielssen, Karen Gudbersdatter (Gubbertsdatter). The year of birth for her is slightly different in the censuses, but I am certain she is the same person.
Also re:
"The BIG question is what is that word after ANE in Niels and Peters chirstening records? Why is she not called Ane Nielsdatter?"
See my post above for an explanation for what the word is after the name Ane. None of the mother's last names are give in these birth records. Only first names are mentioned.
0 -
I forgot the attachment!
0 -
I believe the Jens is a mistake by the census taker and is actually Niels.
0 -
Thank you again for all the input. I am feeling much more confident about the conclusions.
0
