Help with Bradford Wiltshire marriage records?
@PhilipCaine and I have been discussion multiple records and searches. His most recent one is regarding a marriage record possibly in Bradford Wiltshire. @DavidBeck1 or @LGPreston would you be able to help Philip with his questions?
Please see part of our correspondence below:
A very helpful member was able to access a Family Search centre via her local library on my behalf. She searched the parish records for Lacock Wiltshire for the marriage of George Cains (FS ID# M6QQ-6RS) and Hester. Although all of their 10 children were baptised there, the marriage wasn't found. A later census reveals Hester Cains was born in Bradford Wiltshire not Lacock so it seems possible she could have married there. I wondered if the records she searched included Bradford as well as Lacock and any Wiltshire marriage would have shown up. (She is no longer responding to messages)
I thought maybe a Family history centre in Wiltshire UK might have access to transcriptions of local Parish Registers made by local family history societies.
The details are that Parish registers for Lacock Wiltshire show the baptisms in the 1820s, of 10 children of George Cains (b1781) and Hester Cains. There is no sign of a marriage which judging by the ages of the children, would have been circa 1819. In a later census Hester claims to have been born (Circa 1793) in Bradford Wiltshire and therefore possibly married there. The question is would a search for Lacock have included records for Bradford, or are they different?
I would welcome knowing if there is an alternative way of accessing the Bradford-on-Avon parish registers as we have discussed. Having exhausted the usual channels and the internet sources, I'm beginning to suspect there isn't a record, but maybe a local Family centre may have something not yet digitised - a faint hope indeed.
Comments
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The following was added on 26 June 2020
Curiously the person has not added the maiden name of the wife.
The source is given as Wiltshire, England, Marriages, 1538-1837 but there is currently no such collection in FamilySearch. I cannot find that marriage on FS.
However, the marriage can be found on both Ancestry and FindMyPast although neither have the images to go with it.
The details are George Cary married Hesther Salmon, both of this parish. Cary is not too far from Cains but sufficiently far that FMP does not accept it as a variation of Cains.
FMP has the marriages for Bradford in the relevant time period. Searching for George and Hester without surnames in the period 1810 to 1820 in FMP's Wiltshire marriages pulls up 39 hits (some duplicates) hits. Of these, the closest match to Cains is the one in Lacock. There is one in Bradford - Butcher - so don't think that is likely.
Regards
Graham Buckell
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Yes, he is aware of that event but has been unable to find the parish or marriage record for it. That is what he is searching for. The children were born in Lacock, but the wife was born in Wiltshire, which is why he was thinking maybe they were married there.
Thank you for looking through FMP. I will make sure @PhilipCaine sees your notes!
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I have added my comments in the thread at the British Isles group. He should be able to obtain a copy of the marriage entry through the Wiltshire and Swindon Archives - see https://wshc.org.uk/home/news/item/revamped-online-catalogue.html or https://wshc.org.uk/our-services/archives.html. Unless it has been incorrectly indexed, it does appear the event should be found somewhere within the Lacock registers.
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@PhilipCaine @ifyerhappyanduknowit @Graham Buckell
Would this Church link help your searches:
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@Graham Buckell @Paul W @DavidBeck1 thank you so much for your responses. I've made sure that @PhilipCaine has seen your responses! I appreciate the help and the time you took to assist him.
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Many thanks for your help and taking an interest in my case.
The information about a George Cains marriage to Hester Salmon/Selman which appeared in my tree here, apparently sourced from Find my past by an anonymous member, proved to be false. The ages of the children would have made it impossible. A local search by a member of the Wiltshire Family History society has found a marriage of George Cains to Hester Bricker but at an earlier date and in a neighbouring County. However this village Twerton in Somerset is within walking distance of Bradford in Wiltshire, so a promising line of inquiry.
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I am puzzled by your comment. On FS, the first child, George, was born in 1819. The Lacock marriage was in 1817. How is this impossible given the ages of the children? The marriage in Twerton (6.5 ml from Bradford and 12.1 ml from Lacock) was in 1814. This creates a 5 year gap which is long unless there were more children christened elsewhere.
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The anonymous person who posted the false information to my tree justified it by the baptisms of the children. The problem is that although some of the names of the children match their ages don't.
Clearly there are 2 separate sets of baptisms and parents names given as George and Hesther Cary and the other set parents George and Hester Cains.
I agree that the Twerton marriage is earlier than I thought and Twerton is a new location. The researcher who found it thinks George may not have been the eldest child and it could have been Jane. He also thinks there could have been other children who didn't make it to the mass baptisms in 1822. There is a Jane Cains born even earlier in Twerton 1812, when Hester would have been 19 years old and unmarried.
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It becomes very difficult to verify information if the original records are not available online, or if you do not have easy access to the record repository where the parish register material is held.
When I began my research, I found very little online relating to my mother's Essex ancestry. Fortunately, I only live about 40 miles from the Essex Record Office, so was able to make regular visits to check registers covering a large area from close to where she was born.
Without being in a similar position, I am afraid it might be a difficult job to confirm the true details of this branch of your ancestry. In the past - providing they could afford to do so - researchers had to hire a local genealogist (or historian) to do this work. We have been spoiled by modern technology, which has led to so much being available without us even having to leave our sitting room!
Hopefully, the relevant, original records will become available online in the near future, or you will be able to find an alternative means that will lead to a successful conclusion in confirming the correct identities of these ancestors and relatives.
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I have done some more digging!
The person that posted the Lacock marriage was Sherylnreti7 in June 2020. If you want to send her (?) a message, you can find her name by clicking on the Latest Changes on the right of the Details screen for George and scrolling down to where the marriage was added. By clicking on her name, the option to send a message appears. However, I do agree with you that the Lacock marriage is wrong. As you say, there are children being baptised in Lacock with parents George and Hester Cary separately to those baptised with parents George and Hester Cains. The names of the two sets of children are quite similar but the dates are different with the Cary children starting in 1817.
I note also that people listing the couple on Ancestry have accepted the Cary marriage but that does not prove anything. Commonly on Ancestry one person makes a mistake and many others blindly copy the error.
I think that the Lacock baptisms must be correct. There is an extremely good correlation between the 1841 census record and those baptisms.
I list above al the children baptised in Lacock with their ages in 1841 and 1851 (where I have found them). As noted, Alfred died in Lacock, age 6m, and was buried there. This leaves Jane unaccounted for but it is quite likely that she was elsewhere by 1841 assuming still alive. The 1841 shows two more children, Sarah age 4 and Ann age 3. I am guessing that Anne 1833 died and they gave the same name to another Ann born abt 1837. This was quite a common practice in those days. There is quite a lot of inconsistency regarding birthplaces in census records from 1851 but, of those I found, all the children list Lacock as the birthplace in at least one census.
Hester gives Lacock in the 1851 census and Bradford in the 1861 census so which is correct? I lean towards Bradford as this is the only time the place is mentioned although normally I favour locations from earlier censuses.
Having four children baptised on the same day is not that unusual. That does not mean they were quads - extremely unlikely in those days especially given that at least three survived to adulthood. By far the most likely scenario is that at least three of them were older. Whether this was caused by earlier non-conformism, lack of money, laziness or some other reason, we cannot tell. When children were baptised older than a few months, it is quite common to give their birth dates in the baptism record but not always and not so here. The original parish register entries can be seen on Ancestry. Typically in these cases, the youngest child was an infant and the parents took the opportunity to catch up with older children not previously baptised. The question is how old were they. From the pattern of ages from census records, it suggests that Jane was likely the oldest and this could put her as born around 1816 if one assumes two years between each child. The order of baptisms was Thomas, John, George and then Jane. This is youngest to oldest for the boys. This supports the idea that Jane was the oldest but, of course, it may have been boys before girls.
This makes the Twerton marriage more plausible. I remain reluctant to accept it without further supporting evidence.
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@PhilipCaine @ifyerhappyanduknowit @Graham Buckell
I messaged Archives@wiltshire.gov.uk and received this reply:
"Thank you for your email. I am only able to provide a 10-minute search, in which, unfortunately, I’ve been unable to find the marriage of George and Hester Cains. However, Wiltshire parish registers are now available online at Ancestry.co.uk. These are currently available for home access free of charge. You will need to set up an account, but the collection of parish registers can be accessed here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/ai/collections/UK/WiltshireSwindon?o_xid=107903&o_lid=107903&o_sch=Library%2fAssoc.
Alternatively, we offer a research service; we charge £34 per hour. We can search the surrounding Lacock parishes. Please complete and return the attached order form if you want us to search for you.
Kind regards, Ian
Ian Hicks, Community History Advisor, Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre
Tel: 01249 705500, Email: ian.hicks@wiltshire.gov.uk, Web: www.wiltshire.gov.uk, Follow Wiltshire Council"
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Thank you Paul, Graham and David for your help.
I am in my 90th year and housebound so an actual visit to these locations is not possible for me.
I do have records for George Cains b1819 down to the present day, but my only link to George and Hester is via those baptisms.
I did send a message to Sherylnreti7 but had no response. She/he also claimed that George's parents were Thomas and Betty Cains but it seems Thomas would have been 8 years old when George was born if the ages are correct. Brothers possibly?
Is there some way I can receive notification of replies to this thread?
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Philip
Click on the bell near the top right. It will open recent notifications. In the top right hand corner there are three lines. Click on these to modify your preferences. One of these is to receive notifications if someone answers a thread to which you have contributed. It is at the bottom of the list. You can also bookmark the discussion (click the ribbon immediately to the right of the discussion title) and opt to receive notifications when someone contributes to one of your bookmarked discussions (third from bottom on the list).
Regards
Graham
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Thanks again Graham, I've got it now.
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