Why is there no standard place for Ireland being part of the UK?
From 1801 to 1922, the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland) included the entire island of Ireland. So people born in Dublin or Belfast were actually born in the United Kingdom during that time period. After 1922, people born in Dublin were born in Ireland (the Irish Free State), and people born in Belfast were born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). These post-1922 places work reasonably.
But for these places in 1801-1922, there's no way to pick the correct standardized place, because there is no Ireland, United Kingdom place (and of course, none of the counties, cities, etc. within Ireland). If someone was born in Belfast in 1880 and died there in 1950, how does one enter the 1880 birth place? Currently, one can choose either:
- Belfast, Ireland (Major City 1610-1922). This is wrong because the country was the UK in 1880.
- Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom (Major City 1922-present). This is wrong because Northern Ireland did not exist in 1880.
Passions can run high when the topic of Northern Ireland is raised, especially if people with a strong allegiance to Northern Ireland are forced to place their ancestors in Ireland. I know it would be a huge undertaking to create place entries for every entity in Ireland to make that 1801-1922 distinction for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but I'm just curious what the thinking is as to why that hasn't been done.
FYI, the immediate impetus for my question was a GetSatisfaction discussion: https://getsatisfaction.com/familysearch/topics/sensitivities-with-ireland-identification -- but I've run into this before in my research.
Answers
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@Alan E. Brown
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Here is a response I received when I requested the 'Place' Name of "Ceylon" (pre 1972) as a "Standard"; as opposed to, being 'lumped' in as an "Alternate Name" for "Sri Lanka", which DID NOT even exist as a "Country" until 1972.
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Thank you for sharing this concern with us!
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FamilySearch Places primary purpose is to help people, computer systems and databases share meaning around the places in our family histories. The Authorities Team (curators of FS Places data) have established a number of guidelines/best practices for FamilySearch Places. One of these reads:
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RULE OF DIMINISHING RETURNS WITH INCREASING DISTANCE FROM PEOPLE: With larger jurisdictional areas - U.S. states, British counties, provinces and countries - we choose to be much less interested in changes that might otherwise be a reason to create a unique place.
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FamilySearch Places needs to include all of the Alternate Names for Sri Lanka, over the course of its colonial history. We will make sure all of the names you've suggested are there.
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We will not create separate place descriptions for each of the time periods you point out. Such action would result in the proliferation of very similar looking place names at different time periods - a potential point of confusion for people wishing to simply describe a village or town of Sri Lanka.
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As an island nation with consistent external boundaries and very little opportunity for confusion (Sri Lanka and Ceylon are both recognizable names that do often appear in other parts of the world), Sri Lanka is best left alone with a single, simple place description. Alternate names will direct/funnel us all to a shared understanding of the place.
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Thank you for your interest in FamilySearch Places!
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Luckily, after further comment by me, the "Standard" of "Ceylon" (Unknown-1972) has been added to the "Research/Places" Database, with the others I submitted,
= Portuguese Ceylon (Portuguese: Ceilão Português) 1597–1658
= Dutch Ceylon (Dutch Governorate of Ceylon) 1640–1796
= British Ceylon ( British Crown colony - Ceylon) 1815–1948
= Ceylon 1948–1972
as subject to further investigation/enquiries.
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In relation to "the island of "Ireland", technically; and politically, you are correct ...
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But ...
That said ...
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What is in a Name?
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I am sure that the "Irish" Born ANYWHERE on the island, of "Ireland", DO NOT really consider themselves as being Born in the "United Kingdom" - in any time period - let alone seeing it in "Print".
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Brett
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Brett
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I would, incidentally, be interested in confirmation that it is a big job to add 1801-1922 entries, etc, as suggested. To be clear, my gut feeling is that yes, each Irish place would need to have its list of place-names altered, however, I don't know that for certain - I have fantasies of just altering the 32 counties to (a) short-date their current names; (b) add an 1801-1922 name and (c) add a 1922-today name - and then somehow, as if by magic, the same change ripples down to all the lower level names. But, I have no idea whether that's possible using the current system - I suspect not, based on what I've picked up about workloads...
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