Help with two children with the same name?
I am newer to German records and noticed that the last two children of this couple have the same name. When that happens in English records it is often because the first child died. However this record is confusing to me because the first child born has a spouse with an attached record. How can I find out if the first child died and if that marriage should be with the second child. Thanks so much for any help with this! I am still learning and want to do it right. Thank you! Julie
Answers
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Julie. When you click on Johann Peter Mueller b 1786 and look at sources you will find he married in 1830 so he was very much alive at least until then. Once you find the document you can post it on this site and wonderful people will translate it. The world will open to you when you have documents translated. You can find out occupations, relationships, baptismal sponsors and much much more. Here is Peter's marriage record. Let me know if there is anything else I can help you with. Copy this document. Ask to have it translated in a new post and you will find joy. KG
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P.S. I know of an instance where 6 brothers in NYC all had exactly the same name. It took a genealogist 6 years to figure out who was who and trace them back to Germany. Stranger things do happen. KG
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The John Peter Mueller b 1793 has the same marriage date. There may be only one John Peter Muller. This is common in FamilySearch. To find the real John Peter Muller you need a birth record for one or both of them and then compare parents. You will still need a translation or two.
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Here is Johann Peter Mueller's marriage record. Put it in on a new post and ask to have it translated. You may be surprised what you learn. KG
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Julie Here is an example from my Scholl line where three different children all have the same name:
1. Matthias Scholl 1744-1794 married Maria Elisabeth Gamer 18 April 1769, eleven children. died 17 Feb 1794 at age 49
2. Jacobina Margaretha Scholl 1746 Dec
3. Jacobina Scholl 1748-23 May1750 died at age 1
5. Jacobina Margaretha Scholl 1752-1823 married Jacob Lind 21 november 1744 and had two children. Died 19 Jan 1823 at age 70
6. Maria Salome Scholl 1754-1813 married Christoph Weick 24 Nov 1774, had 8 children and died 23 Dec 1813
7. Maria Catharina Scholl 1756 Dec see doc below
8. Philipp Scholl 1759-1817 married Maria Margaretha Kemm (1761-1794) and they had 4 children. Philipp died 26 Jan 1817
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You have certainly stumbled upon an interesting case here. Looking at the baptism records for several of the siblings on Archion, I find that there are long notations by the pastor in several instances. You need one of the German experts here to analyze and translate these notes. I cannot tell from the notes exactly what is being described.
The baptism of Johann Peter June 1784 has a note referring to page 141.
Baden: Landeskirchliches Archiv Karlsruhe > Heidelberg Heiliggeistkirche > Taufen Aug. 1761 - 1800
The entry on page 141 is the baptism of Philipp Gottlieb in September 1781. The entry is crossed out for some reason and a note added below it.
Baden: Landeskirchliches Archiv Karlsruhe > Heidelberg Heiliggeistkirche > Taufen Aug. 1761 - 1800
The baptism of Johan Peter in December 1793 has a note referring the reader to an entry in the 1840 baptism register.
Baden: Landeskirchliches Archiv Karlsruhe > Heidelberg Heiliggeistkirche > Taufen Aug. 1761 - 1800
The 1840 entry (#35 3/4!) appears to be an exceptional entry attempting to explain or verify the true birth date for Johann Peter. There is an extensive note in the margin of this record.
Baden: Landeskirchliches Archiv Karlsruhe > Heidelberg Heiliggeistkirche > Taufen Okt. 1839 - 1844
The marriage of the parents occurred on 17 January 1775.
Baden: Landeskirchliches Archiv Karlsruhe > Heidelberg Heiliggeistkirche > Trauuungen, Beerdigungen 1761 - 1787,Jan. 1788
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@julieworkmansessions , @bobgreiner1 , @Kent Gardiner
Here we have a typical example that shows how important it is to go to the primary sources - and even then there may be some open questions....
In this case the birth of Johann Peter Müller (who later married Elisabetha Reitz in 1830) was not properly recorded in the church book. Many of the entries are the attempt to correct this error later on - and the corrections lead to new confusions ...
I'll start with the translation of the lengthy entry dated 19 May 1840 (unfortunately the handwriting is not always clear, but the main points can be gathered):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSWF-74TH?i=454
dealt with 19 May 1840
Before the undersigned parish office appeared: Peter Müller, citizen and wine grower here, married to Elisabetha née Reitz since 4 March 1830, and the Grand Ducal __rator? Carl Arnold (55 years old), and Friedrich Jost, citizen and tailor here (48 years old) . The former, i.e.. Peter Müller, presenting a hymn book for the use in the reformed parish in Kurpfalz? of the year 1786, in which his father Philipp Jacob Müller, citizen and wine grower here, husband of Maria Eva, née Zuber, both deceased, inscribed with his own hand: "My son Peter was born at night at 11 o'clock the 13th of December 1793". The witnesses noted above affirm, and namely the former, that Peter Müller has long since been determined as being of the age mentioned here; the latter, that he was the guardian of the deceased widow of Philipp Jacob Müller. and he had heard several times that her son Peter was born in said year 1793; and that he also - well acquainted with the deceased Phil. Jac. Müller - could recognize the handwriting, and consequently could testify that the entry in the above-mentioned hymn book was written by his own hand, which all of the above-mentioned confirm with their signature.
Heidelberg d.u.T. : <signatures> Abegg (Pastor), Carl Arnold, Friderich Jost, Peter Müller
Note in the margin:
When Peter Müller in early Feb. 1830 requested a registration certificate of the parish because of the imminent marriage with Elisabetha Reitz, it was found that his birth was not registered in the ___? church books. His then still living mother Mar. Eva née Zuber, who deceased on 2 December 1831, affirmed that he was born and baptized in the ___ parish, namely in the year 1793, and referred to the entry in the hymn book, mentioned aside, which her counsel Friedr. Jost also confirms. She was sent to a Grand Ducal Superior Office in order to have her statement recorded there, according to which __ the entry in the ___ register could take place. But for the time being his age in the register was noted with "allegedly", according to this information given by the mother, and the marriage license was issued, because Peter Müller was the son of the spouses Phil. Jac. Müller. But the given advice to legal settlement of this matter was not followed. However, since now again a parish testimony "of the age" of Pet. Müller was urgently needed, it is believed that by taking these notes the above given advice is expressly repeated. <signature> Abegg
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Most people take the information on FS as accurate. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indexed info is often wrong. The most sure way of knowing something is to have multiple translated sources. The translators in the Community are highly skilled at helping this to happen. I am amazed at the dedication and time they give to helping us. They make us better family historians.
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Birth record for Joh. Peter Müller 1793 (page 194)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSWF-S9K9-X?i=155
This record is obviously entered later at the end of the year 1793. It reads:
[child] Joh[ann] Peter [born] 13 December
[parents] Phil[ipp] Jac[ob] Müller, citizen and wine grower, and his wife Margaretha Mar[ia] Eva née Zuber
[Note] See addendum to births and baptisms in the year 1840, 19 May, page 526 <signature> Abegg
No date of baptism is given. The note refers to the entry translated above.
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Birth record for Johan Peter Müller 1786 (page 161)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSWF-S9KS-Z?i=138
This record is entered in the normal space between other entries from 1786, but seems to be from a different hand and has an additional note:
[child] Johann Peter
[parents] Phil[ipp] Jacob Müller, citizen and wine grower, and Maria Eva née Zuber[in] from Mechtersheim
[sponsors] Joh[ann] Peter Zwipf, citizen and master brewer and his wife Catharina née Amman, from here
[born] 17 [June 1786]
[baptized] 18 [June 1786]
[Note] cf. p. 141. this addition is registered after oral announcement of the mother, who together with her guardian Friedr. Jost, and the on p. 141 registered brother Phil. Gottlieb Müller have given this petition today, and requested entry. Heid[elberg] 22 Oct [18]29 <signature> Abegg
The note seems to indicate that the entry was made in the year 1829, not 1786. One wonders why space was left here for an entry that was made more than 40 years later?
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Birth record for Philipp Gottlieb Müller 1782 (page 141)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSWF-S9KS-T?i=128
This record is quite confusing because several entries are struck out and then partly reinstated by a dotted line. It seems that this record was first for Philipp Gottlieb [Müller], then changed to Johan Peter, and finally back again to Philipp Gottlieb. Also, the whole entry is squeezed at the end of the page and seems to be a later addition.
[child] Philipp Gottlieb
Johann Peter[parents] Philipp
HeinrichJacob Müller, citizen and wine grower, and Maria Eva née Zuber[in] from Mechtersheim[sponsors] Philipp Gottlieb Müller, uncle of the child,
unmarried Johann Peter Zwipf, citizen and master brewer and his wife Catharina née Amman, from heresee page 161. Abegg[born] 15 September [1782]
[baptized] 16 September [1782]
[Note] Not entered by the late church councilor and pastor Böhme due to forgetfulness; transferred into the church book from the family prayer book of Schmolke, Basel 1770. 7 April 1800 by Joh__?
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Thank you for your help on this. It certainly was a confused mess. I still do not have an answer to the original question - why were there two Johann Peters? I looked but could not find a death entry for the first child, although I would assume that he died before his brother was born in 1793. Perhaps the pastor forgot to record that entry also. 😒 At least we know it was the younger Peter who married in 1830.
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