Possible Duplicates for Erich Amundsen With
@Michael Jendusa wrote to me to ask: I've found multiple records but I can't tell if I'm looking at multiple people or just inconsistent information about the same person. Erich With and his spouse Charotte Amalie. I've found records with Erich Ammudsen With, Erich Andersen With, Erich Anrdeas With. Each have some variation of Charlotte Amalie some with Johansdatter, some say Jorgensdatter and some just say Charlotte Amalie. How do I tell if these are the same people or multiple people?
I'm posting it here so this can be a lesson in Norwegian research and so other's can chime in when I get stuck. Also, it is easier to add screen shots if needed.
This will take multiple posts.
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My basic procedure is to start as far forward in history as possible to build a really firm foundation for a family. This is because the further back you go, the less information there is in the records, the harder the records might be to read, the greater the variation in spelling, the more interesting the handwriting, and potentially less reliable indexing.
Another fact to stress is that you always need to check original records. Indexing adds a layer of possible confusion that needs to be eliminated. For example, it would be easy with some handwriting styles to confuse Johansdatter and Jørgensdatter.
It is also important to check original records because often the original records contain information that was never indexed. Two pieces that can be extremely helpful are occupations and residences. If you have an Erich Ammundsen With in a child’s birth record who is at the same residence with the same occupation as an Erich Andersen With in another child’s birth record, you can be very confident they are the same men. I have found that workers in a city moved frequently so sometimes a family will be living somewhere different at each child’s birth. However, men almost never changed occupations.
Whenever possible census records are a good place to start because they show family connections. If a family has a child in a census and the only possible birth record for that child has the parents’ names spelled differently or bring in a Johansdatter vs Jørgensdatter question, you can still be confident that you have the right family.
To put this to practical use, Edvardt Emil Eriksen LV81-K7J is listed as the youngest child of Erich and Charlotte Amailia. He is married in 1858 to Bergitte Olsdatter.
On his page are four possible duplicates. Looking at them, they are all derived from either duplicate birth or marriage sources and match the information listed on what we’re taking on his main record. These need to all be merged together.
Also on his page is a hint for a death record in Denmark. Looking at the attached image, it is for an unmarried factory working and does not have the last name of With which this family was using, so it is clearly not him and needs to be dismissed so the hint engine will not bring in other Danish hints.
The final Research Help to address at this point is that his birth place has a red exclamation point. That needs to be fixed so the hint and possible duplicate routines work better.
So take care of all that then come back here.
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The marriage date for this couple is late enough that they should be listed in the 1865 census. Go to the Digitalarkivet main page at https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ , set it to English, click on More Searches in the big black search section, and choose 1865 Census to come to its search page: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865 I find it is most efficient to search with just the first two letters of a name followed by the wild card *.
So in this case enter ed* for the first name and wi* for the last name and see what happens: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865?fornavn=ed*&etternavn=wi*&familiestilling=&sivilstand=&yrke=&fodselsaar=&fodested=&alder=&ny_husholdning=&trossamfunn=&bygning_for_natteopphold=&etnisitet=&etnisitet_mors=&spraak=&merknader=&bosted=&bydel=&gaardsnummer=&bruksnummer=&gaardseier=
Too many results to be of use, so enter male under gender and birth date as 183* under date of birth: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865?fornavn=ed*&etternavn=wi*&kjonn%5B%5D=m&familiestilling=&sivilstand=&yrke=&fodselsaar=183*&fodested=&alder=&ny_husholdning=&trossamfunn=&bygning_for_natteopphold=&etnisitet=&etnisitet_mors=&spraak=&merknader=&bosted=&bydel=&gaardsnummer=&bruksnummer=&gaardseier=&sort=rel
No results that could be him. Maybe didn’t use With? Just Erichsen? Changing the last name to er*: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865?fornavn=ed*&etternavn=er*&kjonn%5B%5D=m&familiestilling=&sivilstand=&yrke=&fodselsaar=183*&fodested=&alder=&ny_husholdning=&trossamfunn=&bygning_for_natteopphold=&etnisitet=&etnisitet_mors=&spraak=&merknader=&bosted=&bydel=&gaardsnummer=&bruksnummer=&gaardseier=&sort=rel
Forty eight results, but no one born in Kristiansand. Did the family emigrate? Did Edvard die young? Maybe we need to take a different approach. Maybe looking for all Withs in Kristiansand would work. Do that by clicking on the Geography tab, picking Sørlandet, then Vest-Agder, then Kristiansand: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865?page=2&fornavn=&etternavn=wi%2A&familiestilling=&sivilstand=&yrke=&fodselsaar=&fodested=&alder=&ny_husholdning=&trossamfunn=&bygning_for_natteopphold=&etnisitet=&etnisitet_mors=&spraak=&merknader=&bosted=&bydel=&gaardsnummer=&bruksnummer=&gaardseier=&area%5B0%5D=3300
Interesting, not a single With. This raises spelling questions.
Maybe we need to take a look at that marriage record. The originals of which are found at: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060105021065 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607340615 (I think we talked before about finding these records? If not and you have any questions about how to get to them, let me know.)
One record gives Unkar, (bachelor) Tambor (position in the military in the drum corps or so I’ve been told), Edvard Emil Eriksen, age 22, born Kristiansand, father Erik With. Bride is Bergitte Olsdtter, 28 yo, from Halingdal.
The other record gives an occupation for father Erik With that I can’t read but can be compared to other entries for him later to help confirm it is the same person. I hope one of them has clearer handwriting so we can figure out what this really says. This one says Bergitte is from God(one more letter). parish.
Maybe looking for Bergitte in the 1865 census with a birth year of about 1830 will reveal them. Set up that search using ber* ol* Female from hal*|god* born 182*|183* (the vertical line means or): https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/search/1865?fornavn=ber*&etternavn=ol*&kjonn%5B%5D=k&familiestilling=&sivilstand=&yrke=&fodselsaar=182*%7C183*&fodested=hal*%7Cgod*&alder=&ny_husholdning=&trossamfunn=&bygning_for_natteopphold=&etnisitet=&etnisitet_mors=&spraak=&merknader=&bosted=&bydel=&gaardsnummer=&bruksnummer=&gaardseier=
And there she is, fifth on the list: Bergitte Vith f (born) Olsen, born about 1831 in Hallingdal.
Clicking on her shows Eduard Vith as her husband. They are living in Skien, no children, one foster son.
It's always good to get an answer for seeming differences in information. Such as here. Why does the one marriage record say Bergitte is from Hallingdal and the other from God? parish. I'm not really familiar with Hallingdal, so turning to Google, I find that it is not a parish or municipality. It is a general region. In it are the parishes of Flå, Nes, Gol, Hemsedal, Ål, and Hol. The word in the marriage record could be Goels. prestegjeld, meaning she was from Gol. That could be pursued later. Looking in the search form for parish records, Gol is the only parish that starts with Go in the entire country.
So now you have a core of confirmed information, more information to add to Family Tree: Bergitte’s birthplace, that they were married at Kristiansand Domkirke in Kristiansand, and three sources to add: the two original marriage records so you can refer back to them when you next run across Erik’s father’s occupation, and the census.
Do all that, then it’s time to look at Erik’s presumed birth record.
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Going to the main search page for parish registers at the Digialarkivet at: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb/browse start by setting the parish to Kristiansand and the from and to years to 1836 and list type to Born and Baptized. This gives two results: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb/browse?parishes%5B%5D=1001S1&list_types%5B%5D=dp&start_year=1836&end_year=1836&text= the Ministerialbok (official) and Klokkerbok (copy). You will want to check both because they can at times be a little different.
Since there are indexed records sources for what we are assuming is the correct person, it is easy to click on Content, click on the correct year, then scan for Edvardt Emil’s birth date, finding it here: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070608310065 and here: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070608310065 (Actually, it was not that easy! I had to use the search function for both. It turns out that Eduard Emil was born June 10, baptized at home on June 24, but not was confirmed in church until September 11 so that is where it is recorded in the parish register, three pages past where you expect to find it based on the indexed sources.)
This record matches very nicely with his marriage record. The right name with the Ministerialbok spelling it Edvardt and the Klokkerbok spelling it Eduard, the right father’s name, the right place (no residence, just the city).
There is one thing to check. Are there any other Edvart Emil’s born to an Erik in these parish registers which cover 1827 to 1841? If not, then this has to be the man in the marriage records. You can check this using the search function in parish register. It is in the right-side fly-out menu. Get to it using the tabs circled then click on the blue square with arrow icon in the outlined line for searching transcribed births. In the search form that comes up, set given name to ed* and roll to “barn.” Leaving it this general will make sure you don’t miss anyone. It does help to click the “Disable name variants” box. This gives 36 results. There is just the single Evard Emil.
So now you have clear support to connect the marriage record and birth record. You can add his birth place of Kristiansand, a note about his home christening and date of ratification, and perhaps most critically, confirmation of his mother’s surname of Kronmann. You are sure to see it in most records. (I see you have a number of variants for the spelling) And you have two more sources to add to Eduard Emil.
Go through this process with the other nine children and it will probably become pretty obvious as to whether the other records you have found belong with this family or not.
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To jump to something different, I see there is a death record for Edvard’s mother, but there isn’t much information in the source. For 1836, there may not be anything more in the actual record, but it’s always worth a look since I already have the parish registers open. They are here: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070608310392 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607340083
The only additional information that can be added to Family Tree is her death date and place. I generally put which church the funeral was at for the burial place. Back this far that was probably the only cemetery. In this case Kristiansand Domkirke. Once again her maiden name is included as expected, even though it was not in the index.
(I see I accidentally added the same link twice for Edvard’s birth records. Here is the Klokkerbok one: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607330609 )
You now have five sources with Erik’s occupation. They are all definitely the same word and I can’t read any of them.
I think I am comfortable enough with this family to give an actual opinion about the other records you found. Let me know where they are, and I'll take a look.
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https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037610343
actually most of the records are in my ancestry tree. If you have an Ancsetry tree feel free to search my tree (it's public) and I think you'll see what I'm saying.
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Alright, now down to the real business. You’ve sent me four records and referenced your Ancestry tree where you have all the data cleaned up and all the data attached. You should have told me you were so good at Norwegian research! I still may not cut out all the things you already know so others can learn how to do this.
First your question about Charlotte Amalie Johansdatter vs. Jorgensdatter
Looking at both your tree and Family Tree, her father is given as Johan Jørgen Groneman.
I’ve never heard or read anything that gives any opinions regarding the patronymics for the children of men with two first names. I have read that Norwegians never had middle names, just one or more first names. That is, I’ve never really known whether the practice was for Johan Jørgen’s daughters to be Johansdatter or Jørgensdatter. One thing I have never seen is Johan-Jørgensdatter except in badly indexed records in which the patronymic was not actually in the record but made up for the index. So I don’t think that I would be concerned that in some records you see Charlotte Amalie as Johansdatter and in others as Jorgensdatter as long as everything else agrees that you have the right person.
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First record: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037610343
Actual document: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060105010538 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607360078
This is a birth record for Edvard Michael, it is in Kristiansand, parents names both match, and there is plenty of room for him between the children before and after him. That his father’s name is spelled with two m’s is meaningless.
So I don’t see any problems with this record. I’m a bit more concerned about the next child who does not have any dates and was born in Kristiania. I’ll look at him later.
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Second record: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037612092
Actual documents: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060105010553 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607360134
Here again no concerns because Amund and Ammund are the same name so parents names match, you now have the mother’s maiden name showing up, probably because they have had a step up in social status. Erich now has that occupation before his name that I can’t read that starts with M so this is definitely the same man as in the later records I discussed above
This child is most certainly belongs in your family.
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Next is the marriage record for Erik and Charlotte Amalie at: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000002262303
Actual records: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070502690140
This also agrees just fine with what you already have. What is really fascinating is that Erik is a Tambor, just like his youngest son in his marriage record. Bit of a family tradition going on.
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Fourth is a marriage record for a son, Otto Henrik Sehlephpegrel Erichsen With: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000005511078
Actual records: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060215030234
At first glance this has a couple of problems. Otto’s birth place of Christiania and the Andreas in his father’s name. But you have a birth source for Otto in Kristiansand and that Andreas may not be a patronymic at all but a second first name the priest in Oslo he thought he had. If it is an abbreviation for Andreasen, I still would not be concerned. This is the most common place to see some errors in a record: in a marriage record where the person in question did not come from that parish.
With that name for Otto, the easy confusion of birth places when writing them down, and father Erick A With, and the other records you have for Otto, this also fits just fine.
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Fifth and final unless I have missed one is the death record for Edvard MIchael, the same one mentioned in the birth record above: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000006189527
Actual document here: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070607330488 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070608310315
Here his age of almost 6 yo matches the birth record perfectly as does his mother’s full name. Also his father has the same occupation starting with M.
Since everything else matches to well, here I would again disregard the Andersen given as Erk With’s patronymic and agree that this is a correct record for your family.
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Going back to Erik Valdemar With, there are records for only one of him in the 1865 and 1875 census: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038027005200 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052055004945 that both give the 1823 to 1825 birth year and birth place of Christiania
And among the results is: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000038792180 an Erik Waldemar With born 1823 in Christiania with parents that show he does not belong in your family.
Unless you can find something to show this is a different person than the one in your tree, it looks like he needs to be pruned out.
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One question I have involving Charlotte. The records I have found list her place of birth in Denmark with her maiden name as Kronemann or some variant. The Groneman I have in my trees actually comes from other members trees. Would Groneman be a Norwegian translation of Kroneman/Kronemman? Am I better off keeping Kroneman?
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Your next challenge took a bit more work. Was Charlotte Amalie’s last name a variant of Groneman or Kroneman.
Your entry for her in Ancestry has birth date, christening date and christening place, so it should be straightforward to find it in the Danish microfilms. And it was. Here is the record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894Q-GNLD?i=136&cc=2078555&cat=477
Here is a picture of part her record:
With some close ups of her father’s page and another random record on the page which shows the name Gunild:
It’s pretty clear that his surname was recorded as Croneman in this record.
Your Ancestry tree does not have any siblings for her, but Family Tree does, so let’s work back from her using the information there and see what there is to see.
Johan Jørgen Johansen Gronemann chr 13 jun 1790: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94Q-GNJZ?i=91&cc=2078555&cat=477
Clearly Croneman.
Else Christine Jørgensdatter Cronemand chr 23 Dec 1787:https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994Q-GJF4?i=57&cc=2078555&cat=477
This time Cronemann.
Skipping the next one up which does not have dates, and moving back to a different church record, we come to Friderica Sophia Magdalena Johansen chr. 16 Oct 1784: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894S-59MS?i=562&cc=2078555&cat=477
Croneman once again. And even more exciting, I think that the tile after his name the the same as the title before Erich With’s name. Here it looks like Musüan. Unfortunately I still don’t know what that could be and a quick google search doesn’t bring anything up.
Since this is getting a bit repetitious and since this is research for you to complete, I’m going to jump back to their first child, Christiana Johansen, chr. 22 Nov 1777: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894S-59RY?i=444&cc=2078555&cat=477
That first letter of his surname is still very clearly the same as the first letter of his daugher’s name and he is still Croneman. This time it clearly says Musicant after his name or Musician but there seems to be a military thread to this family with several Tambors and he was married at the barrack’s church in Copenhagen. So I really think if he really was a musician, it was in the army.
One last record to check, his marriage record since we have date and place: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G943-97JT?i=37&cc=2078555&cat=28180
Just when things looked simple, this marriage record is very clear and says Gronemann.
Nothing like dueling primary sources to make things interesting! So eleven sources probably all say Croneman and one says Gronemann. The tie breaker would be his birth record.
Checking back to trees, there is a christening date for Johan George’s youngest sibling so let’s check the original record for that: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994Q-RX5J?i=263&cc=2078555
There on the second line is Charlotte Amalie's grandfather's name: Johan Georg Gronemand.
So apparently there was a spelling shift, but it was in Denmark after Charlotte Amalie’s parents were married but before their first child was born.
In a case like this, you pretty much just have to decide which way to record the names will be least confusing and put in plenty of notes. Getting back to your original question, of whether the surname was Groneman or Kroneman or Croneman, the answer would be, “Yes.”
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