Listing German birth place names in the 1800s for my family
Hello!
I am preparing a chart that will be added to a monument in a cemetery, and I am not sure what to put for the birth place names for some of my ancestors. I am hoping that people in this group may know more and be able to give me feedback. Here are the questions I have:
Person 1. What would be the best birth location to list for Gesine W. von Hagel, born 10 Mar 1885? I was thinking: "Prussia, German Empire." Reasons: (A) I can't find any birth records in Germany; I found some records from the church that her father was baptized in (Author: Evangelische Kirche Etzel (Kr. Wittmund); his birth place was listed as Riepen), but the online records stop before 1885. (B) Her marriage registration (in 1907 in Iowa) lists her birthplace as Prussia, Germany. (Other documents in the US with her birth info list her birthplace as Germany.) (C) The Kingdom of Prussia covered a large area, and I feel confident that she was born somewhere in Prussia based on where her father was born and that the family took a ship from Bremen to immigrate to the US when she was 4 years old.
Person 2. What would be the best birth location to list for Herman Carl Kamradt, born 2 Mar 1885? I was thinking, "Felstow, Pomerania, Prussia, German Empire". Reasons: (A) I have a copy of his birth/baptism registration; it lists Gross Boschpol as the Registry office (which is called Bożepole Wielkie today), and lists Felstow as where his parents were living when he was born. (B) I think there are other divisions I could include, like maybe Lauenburg, but I wanted to include only enough of the location that would allow people in the future to be able to identify the location.
Person 3. What would be the best birth location to list for Bertha Mueller, born 12 Dec 1858? I was thinking, "Hanover, German Empire." Reasons (A) I can't find her birth or baptism records, but her obituary states that she was born in Glansdorf, Ostfriesland, Germany. (B) I searched https://www.meyersgaz.org and found Glansdorf, Leer, Aurich, Hannover, Preussen (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10575013). (C) I would love to find her birth or baptism records, but since I haven't found them, I thought that I could be confident that she was born in the area "Hanover, German Empire."
Person 4. What would be the best birth location to list for Gerhard Janssen von Hagel, born 7 Oct 1859. I am thinking, "Riepen, Aurich, Hanover, German Empire." Reasons: (A) I have a copy of his baptism record (Author: Evangelische Kirche Etzel (Kr. Wittmund)) which lists his birth place as Riepen. (B) I found Riepen on the Historical map on the following website: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10463021. (C) I think that listing "Riepen, Aurich, Hanover, German Empire" as the place of a birth in 1859 would be enough information for someone to find where the birth location is today.
Person 5. What would be the best birth location to list for Eleonore Henriette “Henriette” Behnke, born 12 Dec 1855? I was thinking, "Karthaus, West Prussia, Prussia, German Empire." Reasons: I have not viewed the image yet, but the transcription of her baptism/birth record on familysearch.org states that the baptism place was Karthaus, Westpreußen, Preußen, Deutschland. (If I view the image and see that it lists a more specific location than the district Karthaus, I can add the new location to "Karthaus, West Prussia, Prussia, German Empire.")
Person 6. What would be the best birth location to list for August Kamradt, born 2 Sep 1854? I was thinking "Prussia, German Empire." Reasons: (A) I could not find his birth or baptism records, but I have found multiple records (marriage and birth of his children) that show that he lived in the Karthaus district of West Prussia when he married at when his first child was born. His first 2 children were born in Westpreussen, Preussen; his 3rd and 4th children were born in Pommern, Preussen. (B) The source "New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957" states that he was a citizen of Prussia. (I don't always trust these to show the correct citizenship locations, but the last place they lived is listed as "Neu Roslasin", which is where they were living when his 4th child was born (per Otto Kamradt's birth/baptism record) and which is listed as the origin place in the source "Pomerania, Germany, Passenger Lists, 1869-1901". (C) Since I can't find anything more specific, I thought that "Prussia, German Empire" would be safe considering the other information I found about him.
Do any of you have thoughts, questions, or feedback about the locations I am thinking of listing as the places of birth of the ancestors I have listed above?
Thank you in advance for any help you can give!
Amy
Comments
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Hello Amy,
That's an interesting question. The answer depends on what you want to achieve by specifying the location. Is the place that your ancestors would have indicated as their origin or should it be "information for someone to find where the birth location is today", as you write?
Let me give you an example. For Bertha Mueller (Person 3) her obituary states that she was born in "Glansdorf, Ostfriesland, Germany", which translates to Glansdorf, East Frisia, Germany. It is probably how Bertha herself would have answered to the question: "Where are you from?" This geographical specification is still valid today and will be understood by every German. It is not affected by the various political changes that have taken place over the centuries.
On the other hand, "Glansdorf, Leer, Aurich, Hannover, Preussen" is a mixture of organizational and political entities from different historical periods. The description should probably mean: "Glansdorf, Kreis (county) Leer, Regierungsbezirk (district) Aurich, Königreich (kingdom) Hannover, Königreich (kingdom) Preussen". This cannot be correct because Glansdorf could not have been part of two kingdoms. When Berta was born in 1858 Glansdorf belonged to the independent Kingdom of Hanover, which was annexed to the Kingdom of Prussia as "Provinz Hannover" first in 1866.
Today, the (English) specification for the place would be: Glansdorf, Lower Saxony, Germany.
That said, for a monument that is meant to last a long time, I would suggest using a description that is valid over time and also reflects the identity of the people, so, in this case: Glansdorf, East Frisia, Germany.
A few more comments:
The German Empire did not exist until 1871, so it is an incorrect designation for people born before that date. I would just use "Germany".
The Kingdom of Prussia was (eventually) very large, but not many people identified themselves as "Prussian". In fact, many may have resisted this description although they were subjects of the Prussian king. (Prussia was an imperialist state that annexed many other German states.)
So here is my suggestion (which, of course, you do not have to follow):
Gesine W. von Hagel: East Frisia, Germany
Herman Carl Kamradt: Felstow, Pomerania, Germany
Bertha Mueller: Glansdorf, East Frisia, Germany
Gerhard Janssen von Hagel: Riepen (Etzel), East Frisia, Germany
Eleonore Henriette “Henriette” Behnke: Karthaus, West Prussia, Germany
August Kamradt: West Prussia, Germany
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If you want to follow the historical development, http://gov.genealogy.net/ is very useful, although one has to get used to it first 😉. The display is also not very user-friendly - either letters are too small - or you have to scroll a lot: I recommend to copy the graph to your hard disk and view it there.
Using Person 3 as an example: born 1868 in Glansdorf - see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/GLAORFJO33RD: in 1858 the "Wohnplatz" (part of a village, hamlet, …) belonged to the community of Collinghorst > Amt Stockhausen > Fürstentum Ostfriesland > Landdrostei Aurich > Land Hannover > Deutscher Bund (Prussia only later, in 1866). This will be too complicated for your purpose, however, so I would agree with Ulrich: Glansdorf, East Frisia, Germany.
BTW - from 1811 to 1814 it belonged to France!
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Hello Ulrich,
I decided to use the place names you suggested because my goal is to have place names that will be recognizable over time.
However, I now have more specific information about the birth places of a few of my ancestors, so would like to ask some of my questions again.
New information, Person 1:
Wemke Gesina van Hagel, born 10 March 1885 in Oltmannsfehn.
Source: Meyer, Christian. Historisches Familienbuch, der Kirchengemeinden: Firrel, Hollen, Ockenhausen, und Uplengen (Remels) Band XII/ Ockenhausen bis Remagen und Rendsburg bis Rysum. Nr 11338 bis 12201 und Nr. 13556 bis 13697, page 97. Wittmund, Ostfriesland, Germany, 2002.
New information, Persons 5 & 6:
“August Wilhelm Kamradt was born in Karczemke (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10929020), Eleonore Henriette Behnke in Kositzkau (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/11047036).”
Source: See https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/152003/request-for-help-translating-a-marriage-record-from-1880. (Thank you for your help with the translation!)
Taking into account the new sources above, how would you answer the following questions now?
Person 1. What would be the best birth location to list for Gesine W. von Hagel (which I may update to Wemke Gesina "Gesine" von Hagel), born 10 Mar 1885?
Person 5. What would be the best birth location to list for Eleonore Henriette “Henriette” Behnke, born 12 Dec 1855?
Person 6. What would be the best birth location to list for August Kamradt, born 2 Sep 1854?
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Hello Amy,
here are my proposals:
Person 1. What would be the best birth location to list for Gesine W. von Hagel (AKA Wemke Gesina van Hagel), born 10 Mar 1885?
Oltmannsfehn, East Frisia, Germany
Person 5. What would be the best birth location to list for Eleonore Henriette “Henriette” Behnke, born 12 Dec 1855?
Kositzkau, West Prussia, Germany
Person 6. What would be the best birth location to list for August Kamradt, born 2 Sep 1854?
Karczemke, Pomerania, Germany
Comments:
The specifications have the form village - region - country and allow to locate the birth place unequivocally. Kositzkau and Karczemke - while rather close to each other - belonged to different provinces.
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