Witikon ZH - marriage - 1836 - Fahrner&Schwarz
Hello,
Just wondering why I can't access records from Witikon, Zurich, Switzerland on family search?
Thank you
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The original topic title "Can't access records" has been adapted to reflect the later discussion topic.
Comments
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From what I see at home, you should be able to view Witikon records at Family History Centres.
However, I would recommend you go to https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/index/stadtarchiv/bestaende/pfarrbuecher/PfarrbuecherRefKirche-ZweiteEingemeindung1934.html: Witikon was merged with Zürich (like sevaral other villages) in 1934 - and these records have been digitized more recently. You cannot only view them from home - they are also better quality and in colour.
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I have just added links to selected useful sources for canton Zürich on https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/507943/#Comment_507943.
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Thank you so much for this help. That was a great resource. I am working on Fahrner Family. I found two marriages that I will attach below. It was from this record in 1836 two separate Heinrich Fahrner Families #2, #3. pg 266. I can figure out some info and then I am stuck.
Thank you
Loretta
#2 - Heinrich Fahrner and Magdalena Huber - Banns 4 April 1836 Married 11 April 1836. I cannot figure out where they are from possibly Hegi?? or where they got married??
#3- Heinrich Fahrner and Anna Schwarz - Banns 19 June 1836 Married 28 June 1836. In this record I think he is from Birmensdorf Hof by Hongg?? I can't read the name of the place by Hongg and she is from Alstetten? Hongg looks like an area is there a town there? It says they were married in Hongg as well?
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A comment first: whenever a record is available online, always(!) link to it ... it may be essential to be able to view surrounding entries or pages (and you should try to make life as easy as possible for potential helpers). In this case the link is https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/epaper/PRD/SAR/Pfarrbuecher/VIII-C-187_output/web/html5/index.html?pn=245. To add a screenshot of the entry of interest is still helpful - helps to find the correct entry on the original page.
2) Friedrich Fahrner von W[itikon] seßh[aft] in / Hegi u[nd] Magdalena Huber v[on] Hegi. / Prom. 4 April. Cop. 11 April zu St. / Peter in Zürich.
3) Heinr[ich] Fahrner von W[itikon] seßh[aft] in / Birkrütihof bei Höngg u[nd] Anna / Schwarz v[on] Altstätten. Prom. 19 Jun[i] / Cop. 28 Juni in Höngg.
ad 2) Note the husband's first name: Friedrich. "seßh[aft] in Hegi" means living in Hegi. The only plausible Hegi I find is a village near Winterthur (now part of Winterthur) with an old castle - whether this is the correct Hegi, I cannot say without further (likely time consuming) research. They actually got married in the St.Peter parish in Zürich - you should be able to find the corresponding entry there (https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/index/stadtarchiv/bestaende/pfarrbuecher/St_Peter.html).
ad 3) I read "Birkrütihof bei Höngg". Höngg was a village East of Zürich - now part of Zürich. I find an "inhabitants book" of Höngg-Birkrütihof for 1756 - 1841 on https://amsquery.stadt-zuerich.ch/detail.aspx?ID=439298 (not online). Barbara Schwarz was from (= citizen of) "Altstätten" (today Altstetten, another village now part of Zürich) … not to be confused with Altstätten in canton St.Gallen. They got married in Höngg - again church records are online (https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/index/stadtarchiv/bestaende/pfarrbuecher/PfarrbuecherRefKirche-ZweiteEingemeindung1934.html).
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Thank you so much for all your help. I am leaning toward the second couple being my 2nd great grandfather. I will put the link next time. So the "inhabitants book" of Hongg-Birkrutihof is not online?
I looked through records from the link you sent for Witikon formerly spelled Wytikon and found lots of Fahrners. So grateful for that link.
I also looked through Hongg, but did not have luck, but I will look again. So the Alstetten that Anna Schwarz was from is the one Northwest of Zurich correct?
I think I might have found my great grandfather's birth/baptism record, but the date is off by one day. In the record it says 7 February 1839 and his tombstone says 8 February 1839. He was born in Switzerland is buried in West Virginia. I have been to his grave. I will send the link to his birth record. Maybe I read it incorrectly. Right side of page. Here is the link: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/epaper/PRD/SAR/Pfarrbuecher/VIII-C-187_output/web/html5/index.html?pn=191
This is the first Gottlieb I have come across in my searching. Rudolph Gottlieb as is says here. After his father's name from Wytikon what does it say underneath this? I can make out the last word Hongg.
Thank you for your kindness.
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First short answer on the location of Witikon, Altstetten and Höngg: https://s.geo.admin.ch/9eea918c23
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Now your other question: the abbreviation is not quite consistent.
On the top of the page it says "Außer der Gemeinde Getaufte": outside the community (i.e. in another parish) baptised Witikon citizens. This will usually be children, where the parents lived in another community: "seßh[aft] in …" - here "in Rütehof Höng".
In the attached [sorry - below] comparison the lower entry (same page) shows the usual abbreviation (many more examples on other pages) - with Heinrich Fahrner it looks different, I assume a "typo" - as nothing else makes sense in the context.
BTW - this is a good example that being able to view other pages may come in helpful - so providing a link is helpful 😉.
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Finally - the baptismal record in Höngg (https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/epaper/PRD/SAR/Pfarrbuecher/VIII-C-179_output/web/html5/index.html?pn=83) confirms 7 Feb for the birth - but gives 10 (not 15, as in Witikon) March for the baptism. Difficult to say for sure which is correct - more likley the date in Höngg, where the baptism took place.
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Sorry - forgot to attach the image:
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I have tried to follow up this Fahrner line in Witikon a bit, and have summarized my findings on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=32622. This includes the baptism record (https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/epaper/PRD/SAR/Pfarrbuecher/VIII-C-187_output/web/html5/index.html?pn=129) of the "most likely" father of Rudolf Gottlieb Fahrner: Heinrich was born as the illegitimate son of Heinrich Fahrner and Barbara Bertschinger. However, the "Ehegericht" (marital court) declared him legitimate on 13.11.1828.
Note that prior to about 1801 the name was spelled Fahner (without the R).
I hope this triggers a discussion on the Fahrner/Fahner of Witikon in the forum - but cannot guarantee this, of course. If you want to make sure not to miss any discussion there, I recommend you register with the forum (which is free and without obligation) and "subscribe" to the topic: you will then be informed automatically each time a new contribution is posted.
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Have you checked https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=32622 already? There are already two interesting contributions:
In 1858 the metal worker Gottfried Fahrner from Witikon (aged 19) and his sister Regula (aged 21) got their passports for emigration to Amerika. Do you know when "your" Gottfried arrived?
An early mention of Fahrner in Witikon in the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis (sort of census) 1637 are Hans Heinrich Farner and his wife Rägeli [Regula] Hüsli [Häusli] (you have to be logged in if you want to view the attached image).
So the nexts steps in your research will be to find your way back from Gottfried to Hans Heinrich, 200 years earlier 😉 ... but beware: there might not be a direct line. Always start from known facts backwards - not the other way round!
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Assuming that baptisms were only on Sundays, I agree with WSeelentag: February 10, 1839 was a Sunday, February 15, 1839 was a Friday.
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Thank you for all your work on this. This is another thing throwing me off. Look at this Muster Roll from the Civil War. Look at the where from: It says Bitmensdorf. I cannot find that and I have looked in Birmensdorf records without luck. Thoughts?
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Hmmm ... there is no Bitmensdorf in Switzerland, there is a Birmensdorf (Zürich) and a Birmenstorf (Aargau). But his parents lived in Rütihof ... doesn't make sense to assume a birth in either of these two.
Age would fit - but according to the passport he was a metal worker - here he is a gardener: he could have changed profession after emigration - but are you sure this is the same (Rudolf) Gottfried? How did you come across this document ... just looking for documents on a Gottfried Fahrner on the internet ... or is there a connection making you sure this is the correct Gottfried?
Always assuming the entry is not just a mistake.
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Hello,
Someone on the Family Search site posted this document to Gottlieb's information. I am not sure that the Rudolph Gottlieb Fahrner in the records is actually my great grandfather. I would like to believe it is, but I am not sure.
You have been so kind with all your help.
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We have a complex problem here - and must be careful not to mix up the different issues, but discuss them independently, keeping in mind that possibly two different (Rudolf) Gottlieb Fahrner (Farner) were born 1839 in Switzerland.
1) We have a Gottlieb Fahrner born (allegedly) 08 Feb 1839 - both on Find-a-Grave and on https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/portrait/KG85-BX9: several lines are followed into the 20th century. Do you recognise one of your ancestors amongst these descendants?
2) If you do recognise someone, and assuming this tree is correct, this Gottlieb will likely be your ancestor as well.
3) In that case: is the DoB on the gravestone (08 Feb) wrong (should be 07 Feb) - or are we talking about 2 different persons? Whilst neither Gottlieb nor Fahrner are common names, there still could be two of them born within a year, actually within a couple of days.
4) How about the "other" Gottlieb born in "Bitmensdorf"? Birmensdorf ZH records should be checked for a corresponding entry. Unfortunately Birmenstorf AG records are (like most AG records) not online at all.
5) There will be (at the time) no clear separation between Fahrner and Farner spellings. Farner seem to have been comparatively numerous in Stammheim ZH (actually there are still Farner citizens of Stammheim around today) - so these records could be checked as well.
I guess, I better stop now - already enough ideas for further research to keep you busy for a while 😉.
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Anyone interested in the topic - or just the method / sources to solve the problem - is invited to read about the solution on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=122288#p122288. Included are two pages from the Witikon "Bürgerbuch": in order to view the actual documents one has to be registered (which is free and without obligation) ... but both documents have been transliterated / translated - to read this, no registration is required. Just have a look 😀.
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Thank you. I have seen these documents, but your clarification in the general forum was very helpful.
I have a question about this document. I am not sure where these two were married and where they are from. Johann Heinrich Fahrner and Anna Maria Lehrer.
Thank you
Also, is there a way to access the "Burgerbuch" from Witikon at my home?
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H[an]s Heinrich Fahrner, v[on] W[itikon] seßh[aft] in Neubaw (= Neubau) in Baiern
announced 30.07.1843 / married 25.09.1843 in Feldkirchen K[önig]r[eich] Baiern.
A[nna] Maria Lehrer v[on] Feldkirchen in Baiern.
Hans Heinrich Fahrner of Witikon, living in Neubau in the Kingdom of Bavaria, married on 25.09.1843 in Feldkirchen Anna Maria Lehrer of Feldkirchen.
You find Neubau on the map (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10478020) on the way from Feldkirchen to Riem.
The "Bürgerbuch" is not online (to my knowledge). I assume Geneal-Forum member griffy has copied the two pages during a visit to the Zürich City Archive.
I have found more info on Hans Heinrich Fahrner on Geneanet, and have summarized (and expanded) this on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=32622#p122320. As mentioned there, I assume the Roman numbers in the record refer to the "Bürgerbuch": I have pointed this out to griffy and asked how he got hold of the two pages he had uploaded. Let's see what he has to say 😉.
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I was confused on where Hans Heinrich was from. Thank you for clarifying this. It makes you wonder how he met her so far away, possibly a soldier/mercenary? Roughly, 330km away from Witikon. Their children were born in Germany, but are listed in the Witikon records. It looks like from the records I am finding that his brother Jacob must have moved there and he married a woman from Witikon, but so far I see one of there children was born in Neubau. Anyway. I will keep looking. Thank you again for helping me understand. I am so grateful for meyersgaz.org it is amazing when I am searching for my German lines.
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Remember - the principle of Swiss citizenship, including the place of citizenship, was the social security system in earlier centuries. Consequently Swiss citizens abroad had an interest to have their children included - which required births to be reported back and documented.
I don't think, any military background is involved - not in this region of Germany. He came from a farming family and ran a farm in Bavaria. Switzerland was at the time not the "rich" country of today - there was a lot of emigration, not only to America.
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The paternal line of the emigrant Rudolf Gottlieb Fahrner (born 1839) has with the help of other Geneal-Forum members researched back to Hans Heinrich Fahrner (calculated year of birth 1613). The complete line is found on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=32622#p123054. An important source were the Bürgerregister (https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/470077/#Comment_470077) of Witikon. The main contents have been transcribed/translated - reading is free. To be able to see the copies of the original pages one has to be registered, however, which is free and without any obligation.
Then there was thy "mystery" of another Gottlieb Fahrner, also emigrating to America, born the same year (1839) in a different location. This has been solved in the meantime. Anyone interested in the solution is invited to read about it on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=32622&start=30#p123289. In this context also Hans Rudolf Fahrner, emigrating to Bavaria, is mentioned.
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