My Great Grandfather, John Welch, dropped out of the clear blue sky, around 1850, into Delaware Co.
(Cleary) Hennessy. There were so many John Welch's coming from Ireland at that time, I don't know which one is mine. In the U.S. I have census records for him, marriage records for his children and his last will & testament. I have done DNA and downloaded through GEDmatch. Nothing. Am I doomed to never know where he came from? I have even searched England, Wales, Scotland and Australia. Nothing. I'm doomed, aren't I?
Antworten
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Hello Debra,
If his name was actually John Welch, you may have some hope of tracing your family back to Ireland. Welch is quite an uncommon name in Ireland. To put some numbers on it, the earliest full census that we have of Ireland is the 1901 census, and it only lists 154 people (53 families) in the whole country with that surname. None are shown to live in County Tipperary.
However, it is very possible that Welch is a corruption of the common Irish name Walsh. That same 1901 census of Ireland lists 35,394 people with the surname Walsh. 1,623 of them in County Tipperary. Today Walsh is quoted as the sixth most common name on the island of Ireland.
1850 is before civil records began in Ireland, so you would have to search through parish records which are quite trying. If his name was John Walsh, it will be very hard for you to make much progress unless you had a county of birth and preferably the name of the townland. A birth date or marriage date would also be of immense value.
As you have the name of his spouse, the combination of Hennessy and Welch/Walsh will help to narrow this down considerably. I would suggest your best strategy would be to search the parish marriage records for every parish in Tipperary. With the names Hennessy and Welch/Walsh, they are certainly Catholic, thus you should look in the Catholic parish records.
John.
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Hello John,
I have one small problem. John Welch's wife, Bridget, was from Co. Tipperary. Her parents are buried at Lisvernane. The parish given for her mother was Glen Aherlow. That name no longer exists. I find Glenbane and Clenkeen but not Glen Aherlow. I will search the other two parishes and perhaps find something.
Thank you for your advice. Wish me luck!
Debra
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I found information for Thomas Hennessy on Findagrave the memorial lists all his children and who they married. see link:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy
Bridget Hennessy
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852276/bridget-hennessy
Lisvarrinne Church Cemetery
Located in Lisvernane, Parish of Clonbeg, Glen of Aherlow, Tipperary.
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2309753/lisvarrinane-church-cemetery-
Also Bridget Hennessy married Jeremiah Dwyer on the 21-FEB-1845 Parish/District -- Galbally and Aherlow
County -- Co. Limerick per Roots Ireland
Tim
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Hello TimothyMc,
Thank you for replying to my post. I think I am ready to give up the search for my Great Grandfather John Welch. Although on Ancestry.com it records DNA matches for that particular Bridget and her mother & father and myself.
I just really don't know what to do anymore. Although I have been searching a long time, 45 years off and on, I have no more information on John then I did all those years ago. I did see Thomas and Bridget on 'Find a Grave'. I don't know what I was thinking that I ignored Mr. Dwyer.
I appreciate your help more then you know!
Kind Regards
Debbie
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Hello Debbie,
I was trying to find the information that you have for John Welch in the U.S. Census. I found a John Welch in the 1850 U.S. Census Age: 35 from Ireland working as a farmer in the state of Iowa. In the 1860 U.S. Census no one by that surname in the state of Iowa, but a John WELSH living in Goshen, Clermont Ohio Age:45 from Ireland with his wife Bridget Age:45 from Ireland and their daughter Honora Age:15 born in Ohio. Does any of this information match the info you have? If not please provide John's age per the census.
Tim
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Hi Tim,
I hope you can make the information I copied and paste, here, big enough to read!
John Welch & Bridget Hennessy lived in Delaware Co. Iowa, Elk Township.
He died in Dec of 1870 but couldn't be buried until Feb because of the frozen ground.
He was buried on the farm too so there is no death certificate.
Thank you for taking the time to look for him, but it is just impossible to find him among all
the other John Welch immigrants.
We think he was born around 1827 in Ireland.
Sincerely,
Deb
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I would still check out on John Grenham's site https://www.johngrenham.com/ to determine where (Welch) Walsh and Hennessy surnames intersect or what parishes are close to each other. People rarely married someone more than 7 miles away.
Glen Aherlow does exist as Glen of Aherlow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_of_Aherlow. The village is Lisvarrinane or Lisvernane. According to: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/County_Tipperary_Civil_Parishes the Catholic Parish was known as Galbally and Aherlow in Co. Limerick (it is right on the border with Tipperary) in the Diocese of Cashel. You could check NLI.ie for her family records: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0264. You did not mention their approximate dates so I was unable to check those parish records for you, but from my own experience I know they have early records.
Have you checked the court records in Iowa for his naturalization papers? Did he own farm land? You can find his land records at GLOrecords.blm.gov (That's Government Land Office records Bureau of Land Management). If you check when he purchased land in Delaware County, Iowa then you can approximate a likely date of final naturalization process. There's three sets of papers. The final papers are quite worthless other than the date, but the application and intent can tell you where he's from. You just have to search the courts in that area of Iowa.
I have ten Irish immigrant ancestors who settled in Iowa and despite great odds to the contrary I have located all their birth villages in Ireland except two, but it took a long time and lots of patience. Do not despair.
Did you find his obit and tombstone? I have also found places of origin that way. Also, I have searched for siblings and other Irish neighbors and traced them back and found place of origin that way.
Iowa has incredible county history books. Most likely the other Irish were from the same area so it's worth checking out, that's where I've learned a lot about my Irish ancestors--https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/172948?availability=Family History Library.
Please let us know what you find out and we'll be glad to help you some more.
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My Great Grandfather, John Welch did not purchase their land in Iowa. His wife, Bridget did, on Aug 31, 1858. She must have been naturalized in order to buy the land.
The courthouse in Manchester has been scoured for anything relating to John and Bridget Welch. Many years ago a lady from the Delaware Co. Historical Society kindly helped me, through the miles, with finding my Great Grandparents. Everything she found with a Welch name on it was copied and sent to me!
Only John's will exists on paper. Signed with an X as he could not read nor write.
There is no death certificate for him. He died in Dec of 1870. The ground was frozen. He was not buried until Feb, in a shallow grave, on the farm.
While I have found on Ancestry that I have DNA matches to both of them and Bridget's parents and I have no real connection. According to records that our friend Tim has found, Bridget married a 'Dwyer'. I saw that record too but went into denial
mode.
I will check out the links you so kindly sent me and I appreciate your help so, so much. While I have been searching on and off since I was 21 yrs old and am now 66, I would say my skills with genealogy are very poor.
As for Bridget's death, she had gone back to Plymouth Co. Iowa, to be with her oldest son, Edward, who is my grandfather. She died there, but per her wishes, her body was sent to Manchester and buried in the cemetery there with a nice big headstone.
I have come to the conclusion that John did not want to be found or his spirit is playing a very difficult game! I suppose John and Bridget's marriage was one of convenience.
Thank you for your reply to my lost hope!
Sincerely,
Deb Welch
On August 14, 1857, a marriage license was taken out for John & Bridget, but never returned or documents pertaining, found.
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Typically females did not have to naturalize if they were married or a minor child of their father. That's unusual for a woman to purchase land at that time. I understand they USUALLY had to be naturalized to purchase land, but not always.
No idea where he was before Delaware Co., Iowa as he may have naturalized enroute to Iowa? Some of my Irish ancestors applied for naturalization, but never finalized the records. I have found those records in New York, Missouri, Ohio and Illinois before they arrived in Iowa. It's the naturalization applications that are most important for providing critical info. In case you did not know, Delaware County was part of Dubuque County so I would recheck the naturalization docs as it could be in a circuit court and not even in Delaware County.
Even if someone helped you years ago it is worth your time to recheck because records seem to "reappear" that have previously been lost or unavailable. Definitely check the county history and learn all you can about the Irish immigrants there.
Iowa did not have almost any civil records in 1870 so no surprise that there's no death record, but there certainly will be a burial record in the Catholic Church. Have you checked the local parish records?
It's fairly common for the Irish immigrants to be illiterate. It was their children who had a chance for education while the Irish Catholics were denied opportunity in Ireland. When they came to America there was little time for the privilege of education, only work!
Where was the 1857 marriage license? Ireland or Iowa? I would check parish records again on that. About 20% of records are just lost so check other sources.
Please explain what you mean by "I have no real connection"? To whom are you referring? Also, you went into denial. About what? That she remarried? Please kindly clarify.
Please update us in your search so we can help.
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I am sorry. Please let me explain the "no real connection". Although my DNA says I have matches to John & Bridget, I have found only one person who has come forward and recognized me as being related.
One lady from Ireland was on my Gedmatch and I on hers. However our information did not match up at all. Bridget Hennessy Welch came from her family and mine. But we could not find John Welch. Bridget's parents were Thomas Hennessy and Bridget Cleary Hennessy. The DNA is there. However records say their daughter married a 'Dwyer', not a Welch.
When I say I am in "denial" it is that I don't want to believe my Great Grandmother married this 'Dwyer'. But the record is there.
Their marriage license was taken out in Delaware Co.
I have two cousins who worked diligently for years also researching. They wrote letters to all the priests in Delaware Co. asking for records of death, births & marriages. Again, nothing for John. We have all the marriage records for their children.
I do have a book I bought on ebay, "Delaware County Iowa History 1850 - 1870". Not a clue in there and it was the perfect time. I have another book "Pure Nostalgia, Memories of Early Iowa" by Carl Hamilton.
Let me include this story: My Grandfather, John & Bridget' first born, came to settle in Plymouth Co Iowa. My Grandfather and Grandmother went to the Catholic Church in the tiny town west of them known as Westfield. The last several years the church has been locked up and not used. But left as it was on the inside. On one of the beautiful stained glass windows was the name WALSH! My Grandfather Edward Welch had donated money for that window. We immediately began searching for WALSH! Just a few months ago, another cousin, I think 3rd cousin, who is almost 89 years old told us that the Irish priest in that church insisted the name WALSH be put on the window and not Welch! In those days, I'm told, priests were so highly thought of that whatever they said was law.
I will continue to search and not give up, although my spirits are low at this time.
Thank you for your reply.
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It's definitely worth it to contact the Catholic parishes again. It's funny how records "show up" when there are different parish priests!
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Hi Debbie
I found some information in the 1850 U.S. Census for a John Welch and Bridget Welch in Indiana see attachment both born in Ireland, also a John Welch in the 1850 U.S. Census in Iowa see attachment,
In the 1850 U.S. Census he is listed as 23 born abt. 1827
In the 1860 U.S. Census he is listed as 37 born abt. 1823
In the 1870 U.S. Census he is listed as 48 born abt. 1822
I did a search on Roots Ireland from 1821 to 1828 for the name Welch born in any Co.in Ireland. Roots Ireland has what it calls "plus variants" meaning a search for the Surname Welch will also come up with Walsh and Welsh, as mentioned in previous posts the name Walsh is the most common.
All Ireland Search for Welch
1821 61 Walsh 4 Welsh and 1 Welch Co. Carlow
1822 53 Walsh 1 Welsh No Welch
1823 72 Walsh 2 Welsh No Welch
1824 72 Walsh 4 Welsh No Welch
1825 75 Walsh 4 Welsh No Welch
1826 70 Walsh 3 Welch 1 Welch Co. Cavan Denomination Church of Ireland
1827 80 Walsh 1 Welch No Welch
1828 80 Walsh 2 Welch No Welch
I also found that John Welch's Civil War Draft Registration Record see attachment
Tim
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Hi Tim,
Thank you so much for doing all that research! But I can tell you, we will not find MY John Welch's birthplace and parents.
Your "attachment" did not come through as an attachment to get to by browser. However I would like to say that I have seen them, found them, in my searches including the one from Indiana. My cousin did not think that one was actually them. So I discarded it from my tree on Ancestry.
I did find his draft record too. He was turned away. It doesn't say why, at least the one I found didn't. I just assumed it was his TB. I was so disappointed that they did not have a full physical description of him as the other men did. But why would they need one if he wasn't recruited.
I am so surprised that you did all the research looking for John in Ireland! That was a lot of work! And shamefully I must ask, which one of all of those is mine?
That is where the DNA comes in. But I have no one responding. I printed off 20 pages of DNA matches from Gedmatch.
Nothing. I joined a "Walsh Surname" page on Facebook. Nothing so far.
I do have my Hennessy DNA match.
But I want John so badly. Maybe its because his first born, Edward, my Grandfather, named one of his sons after John.
My dad was John L. Welch 1905 - 1965.
My dad named his first born son, John.
And my brother named his first born son, John too.
But my nephew, John L. Welch III stopped it when his son was born.
His son is Martin.
I had just turned 11 yrs old when my dad died. He wasn't loving and emotional with his kids. As, I'm told, men of his generation usually weren't.
So basically, I didn't know him. My older siblings remember him saying his people were from "Queen's". That is all he ever said.
He had some French Canadian blood in him but would never admit to it! As far as he was concerned he was %100 Irish!
As far as I know, he never expressed wanting to go to Ireland or find his roots. Maybe he knew them but never spoke of them. What a crying shame.
I don't know why I am so obsessed with finding my Great Grandfathers birthplace.
But if someone doesn't respond to the DNA, I will never know.
Thank you Tim, from the bottom of my heart, for working so hard on this project of mine.
I appreciate it more then you can know.
Sincerely,
Deb
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Hi Deb,
I can't help you with you queries but wanted to suggest another free website that may help: https://irelandxo.com/
Good luck
Madeleine
PS Searching Irish relations is difficult! I am half Irish and half German and I have much more luck with the German side!
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Hello Madeleine!
Thank you so much for your reply! I am already a member of the website you suggested. I try to leave no stone unturned! My mother was half German and half Swede! So we do have something in common! Her Grandfather's surname was Hansen and her Grandmother's surname was Selk. I am told they actually came from Denmark or their parents did. But I have not been able to go that far back. Only when and where they left Germany.
Thank you for your kind reply!
Sincerely
Deb
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Great website!
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Found John Laurence Welch their son's Death certificate
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Try to get InTouch with Elwyn Soutter on Ireland Reaching out elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk he might be able to help you.
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I have all the marriage and death certificates for John's children. John himself did not have a death certificate as he was buried on his farm in Iowa in Feb 1872. He died in Dec of 1871 of TB but had to be held in cold storage until the ground had thawed enough to bury him.
I have John's will and probate records. All the census records since the beginning of his life in Iowa. It is as if he dropped out of the clear blue sky into Delaware Co. Iowa around 1850. I even have his children's marriage records. I am on GEDmatch with all the DNA that hasn't helped. There are hundreds of John Welch's who came over from Ireland in the mid 1800's. But which one is mine.
Believe me Paige, years and years and years have gone into trying to find John. I have everything from here in the United States. But absolutely nothing for him in Ireland. Thank you for trying. I appreciate it very much.
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I am originally from Iowa and that is where my ten Irish immigrant ancestors settled, not in Delaware County, but elsewhere. This is what has been very helpful for my family with the research:
- Iowa has beautiful county histories. Check those out. Try FamilySearch Catalog and FSWiki for Delaware County. I have learned a lot about my ancestors that way.
- Check out land records on BLM.gov to see who his Irish neighbors were since they often were from the same place in Ireland. Research his neighbor's Irish connections for hints to help you.
- Did his obit mention where he was from?
- Does he have any siblings that came with him to Iowa? Some siblings of my ancestors I was unaware of until I started checking land and census records near my ancestor. Then, I researched the siblings' lives and figured out where they were from in Ireland.
I hope that helps you. Now is the time to check out your ancestor's FAN club (family or friends, associates and neighbors)!
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I do have "Delaware County Iowa History 1850 - 1870" He would have arrived in Delaware Co. about 1850. When I purchased this next book it was out of desperation: "Pure Nostalgia, Memories of Early Iowa". I have several other books about the settling of the west, the Oregon trail, etc.
We do have an old map, from a newspaper or something, showing us John's land (his wife Bridget was the one who bought the land. We have the deed. But she was not a naturalized citizen yet when she made the purchase) And of course the map shows the landowners around them.
John did not have an obit but he is al least on the "Find a Grave" website.
There were many Welch's indeed at that time, in that area of Iowa. But we cannot prove if any were his brothers or uncles, etc. We have nothing to connect them.
When John's wife died, her death certificate said she was born in England! What a surprise that was at the time.
All other records of census and such give Ireland as her birthplace.
My family tree is on Ancestry. If you wish to view it, I can send you an invitation, but I would need your email address.
All we have left really, is DNA. And still nothing.
Thank you for your interest and advice. Truly.
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As you have come to realize, there's no easy answer to your dilemma. I would suggest you follow the lives of all the those with the surname Welch in his area of residence in Iowa. I know it sounds like a long tedious process, but it could be very productive. Basically, do all of their genealogy. You may not know whether they are uncles or brothers, but since they are likely related you can hope that at least one of their records will eventually indicate a place of origin that would be the same for your ancestor. Check all of their obits and naturalization records. It could give you a clue. I do a lot of spreadsheets of the same surnames in the same geographical area and it's a good way to organize and connect many families.
What does the county history indicate about where most of the Irish are from for that county? Are you related to any of these people by chance? http://iagenweb.org/delaware/bios/misc/irish.htm.
In regards to the conflicting places of origin found in the various records, I usually consider the country that is listed most often although I keep an open mind to the other possibility. Death records are definitely the least accurate.
Now, you understand why Ireland has the most DNA genealogy going on! I have used it multiple times and solved many mysteries that way as well. DNA advances will make it possible for much greater understanding over the next decade.
What was John Welch's wife's maiden name? Do you know?
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