Is it possible for someone to take a look at my tree as to double check my work?
I am confused and think i may have messed it up.
The area of concern is at Tollef J Larsens parents.
Antworten
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I think you've done well. I have made a few slight adjustments but it's lookin' good!
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I'd be happy to take a look at what you have (although if Shari is happy with it, from what I've seen her enter on these boards her and there, I'm sure she has you on the right track), confirm what you have, and give you way more advice than you are probably going to want, need, or don't already know. Some of this will be my personal bias, so feel free to ignore it. Also feel free to tell me when to stop!
I'd do this in several parts.
In confirming a tree, you always want to have a good starting point. For the family you are looking at, that would be with the last person born in Norway, Henry.
Looking at his record, his name may be incomplete, his birth information is incomplete, and his christening information is missing. Checking and completing all of that will give you a good basis for working backwards.
You have that Henry was born in Sept. 1852. You do have a marriage date and place for his parents which is consistent with that. Since they were supposedly married in Bragernes Kirke, that is probably where Henry was born. Checking, he is right there, born 14 Sept 1852, where he is suppose to be.
Here is the parish record:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051125010703
Here is the transcription by the Norwegian archives system:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000000634715
Using this, I would move his name Henry N. Larson to an alternate name if since that is what he used in the US and have his main name as Henrik Tollisson Næs as given his his birth record.
Complete his birth record to be 14 Sept 1852, Bragerhougen, Bragernes, Buskerud, Norway
with christening 24 October 1852, Bragernes Kirke, Bragernes, Buskerud, Norway
and add the two links above as sources.
Next step in confirming the family is yours is to make sure they really moved, if possible, and make sure this couple didn't have any more children in Bragernes.
More later.
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@Gordon Collett do join in the fun.
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Yes Gordon please help me
Shari is great too
I just need so much help
I am struggling with navigating Norway
For the most part my tree seems to stop at the ocean
So any help is appreictiated
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Next step, anymore children born in Bragernes? Not according to the transcribed records:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/76/1065?forenamn=tol*&etternamn=lar*&kjonn=&rolle=far&stilling_stand=&bustad=&fodestad=&fodselsaar=&fodselsdato=&aar=&dpdato=&stadfesta=&sokn_kyrkje=&ekte_uekte=&vigd=&introd=&dpstad=&merknader=
Is there a moving out record? These have not been transcribed so you have to look page by page in the parish record, starting with Henry’s birth year of 1852. If one exists, and these move out records are often quite incomplete, it should be before the next child in the family was born in 1854 so a rather narrow interval. Here is the page to start on:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051125011081
And here they are, entries 2, 3, and 4 for 1853, leaving on April 8 for America.
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051125011084
(far right hand columns)
(To take a step back, I see that Henry’s Find-A-Grave record has his full birth date of 14 Sept 1852.)
So Henry’s birth information, the family’s moving out record, and records on them from US sources all build a consistent picture.
Stepping back to the marriage record for Tolli and Anna Bergithe now. Here is the link to the marriage record that Shari found so you can add it as a source for each of them:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061219620225
Here Tolli’s name is spelled Tollif Edvard. I generally use what is in a person’s birth record. The spelling could be different in each record for them.
I don’t think there can be any question that this is the right record for the marriage. It gives the information that Tolli is 23 1/2 years old, was born at Holmestrand and was living at Bragernes, with father Lars Tollefsen. This is pretty solid information. His birth year calculates to 1828/29. He would have been confirmed age 14 or so and to get married, had to have been confirmed. I don’t usually check confirmations for very straightforward families, but they can be useful to help confirm information. In his case, if his entire family had happened to move to Bragernes before he got confirmed, it could be very helpful.
(Oh, forgot to mention but in case you didn’t notice, you can change the Digitalarkivet pages to English in the upper right corner.)
I agree with Shari that the birth record she found is your Tolli. There are two copies, the Priest’s official version and the Klokker’s (somewhat like a Deacon) copy. They are at
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070403610171
and
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070402680729
The name fits, the year fits, the father’s name and occupation fit, the parish fits. In addition, even more exciting, they are living at the farm Næs and would have been using that as their farm name/surname. Now you know why Henrik is listed as Henrik Tollisson Nes. Everything is quite consistent.
If these were my relatives, I would enter Tolli’s name and information as:
Tolli Hedvart Larsson Næs
b. 26 Oct 1828 Nes, Holmestrand, Vestfold, Norway
chr. 2 Nov 1828 Holmestrand Kirke, Holmestrand, Vestfold, Norway
(The Klokker’s copy states he was christened “i Kirken" and gives his mother's full name.)
Have to take a break now, but I'll see if I can find his confirmation record, if for nothing else than to prove that this child survived to his teens.
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Here is Tolli's confirmation record:
Ministerialbok - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019030145
and
Klokkerbok - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070402690224
It gives the same birth place and parents names as his birth record. They are living at Nedre Forstad. Looking at the 1910 census, by that time it looks to be part of the city of Holmestrand in Holmestrand. I don’t see it on a modern map.
Now I have to make a correction! This is why it is important to check all the records. Their residence is here clearly given as Nedre Forstad. Looking back at his birth record, after Anna Catrine Næs it does say "Nordre Forstad." I just jumped over that. Sorry.
So Tolli's birth place is Nordre Forstad, Holmestrand, Vestfold, Norway.
Now the question comes up: Is Næs just Anna Catrine's surname? is it the surname for the entire family? More on that later.
By now you may be asking, so how do I find these records?
Here's a presentation I put together a couple of years ago:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cERjSRfp7xlngsb9fBvLyFTt85TJIdpilvxKalR0ZW8/edit?usp=sharing
this reviews how to use the scanned records at the Digitalarkivet, the digital service of the Norwegian National Archives.
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Confirmed in Holmestrand in 1844, married in Bragernes in 1852. That isn’t too many move out records to check in Holmestrand, so I’ll give that a shot.
Here is the table of contents for the right parish register so you can start getting used to searing for such:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb/contents/1246?clerical_parishes[0]=0702Q&start_year=1842&end_year=1842&text=
Don’t see him. But then there are no records at all for people moving out between 1848 and 1857. But if he left in that period, that gives just a few years, 1848 to 1852 to look for him moving into Bragernes. The parish record for that period is here:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb/contents/1065?clerical_parishes[0]=0602aP&start_year=1850&end_year=1850&text=
I don’t see a record here of him moving into Bragernes, either, but these records of moving in and moving out, as I mentioned before tend to be pretty incomplete and I’m actually rather pleasantly surprised when I do find someone there.
Moving on.
Shari found a FamilySearch indexed record for Tolli, which is very nice because the archives have not transcribed the parish register where his birth was found. Since you now know his record was indexed, you can assume his siblings were, also. A great way to do find these records for his siblings is to do a parent name search restricted to that parish in just the Norwegian Baptism collection:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1467014
Which you set up like this:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?birth_place=holmestrand&birth_place_exact=on&birth_year_from=1810&birth_year_to=1840&father_givenname=lars&father_surname=tollefsen&collection_id=1467014&offset=0
Sometimes when you do this kind of search, you will get an error message saying you need to add more information. You don’t. Just refresh the browser page a few times and you will eventually get the list of results.
The results list here has 9 entries. Some are duplicates. All but one are clearly the same family with parents Lars Tollefsen and Anna Katrine (or Katrine). I’m still reserving judgment was to whether this is Mr. and Mrs. Næs or whether the Næs just belongs to Anna Katrine.
The one exception is Ambor Maria Larsdatter with parents Lars Tollefsen and Anna Catrine Nilsen. Was Nilsen mis-indexed? Is Anna Catrine Næs really Anna Catrine Nilsdatter Næs? Only the original record will show. There is is nice spot for Ambor Maria between Lars and Katrine’s marriage in 1814 and Henrich’s birth in 1817.
You should check all the original records to see what information is there and for practice. When you find them, add them as sources to complement and complete the indexed sources that are already attached. They should be simple to find because you already have the link to Tolli’s record, all the siblings will be in the same book, and you have their birth and christening dates.
I do want to lookat Ambor Maria’s, however. Here it is:
Ministerialbok - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070403610110
Klokkerbok - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070402680679
In both copies, the mother is Anna Catrine Næss, not Nilsen. The record was indexed incorrectly. So here you have another sibling for Tolli to add to the family. This record does not have a residence beyond just Holmestrand parish.
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@Gordon Collett I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation on Searching Scanned Norwegian Records. You certainly did a nice job and helped me a great deal with knowing how to search more skillfully. I stumble around a lot and now I might be more successful. My appreciation and delight!😊
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Final thing to check is the marriage for Tolle and Anna Katrine and see who was the Næs (also spelled Nes, Næss, or Ness).
The parish register for the birth of all their children covers 1814 to 1840, but that book only has marriages back to 1815. So their marriage should be in the previous book. Here are the links to the record which Shari found:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070402680106
(this leads you to two links to choose between, both lead to the same record.)
This record points out that sometimes the records can be tricky to find. Apparently, in 1814 Holmestrand parish was split off from Botne parish. Prior to 1814, Holmestrand Kirke (church) was in Botne parish but there must have been some room in the older parish records, because the marriage for 1814 are still listed under Botne.
Now you are getting back into records that don’t have as much information. All this record says is: 22 ditto [May] Gm. Lars Tollefsen and Jfr Anne Karine Næs.
But it does show that Næs is Anna Karine’s name, not Lars.
So it is most likely that their children were just Larsson and Larsdatter without any other surname.
So I would keep Tolli as just Tolli Hedvart Larsson.
Based on this marriage record, I would correct his parents marriage place to be:
Holmestrand Kirke, Botne, Vestfold, Norway
This shows which sogn (sub-parish: Holmestrand) and which prestegjeld (parish: Botne) the marriage took place in as it was known at the time.
All the children, however, due to the boundary changes would have:
Born - Holmestrand, Vestfold, Norway (some of their records may have where in Holmestrand they were living, as Tolli's did.)
Christened - Holmestrand Kirke, Holmestrand, Vestfold Norway
since they were christened in Holmestrand sogn in Holmestrand prestegjeld rather than Holmestrand Sogn in Botne prestegjeld.
To summarize, what you have looks great for Tolli and his parents and siblings. You just need to clean up dates and places and add sources.
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Last note unless you have further questions. Since they were married in 1814, both Lars and Anna Catrine would have been alive for the 1801 census and are probably listed with their families there. The 1801 census is viewed as quite complete. However, because their marriage record has so little information, it's going to be hard to figure out who they are. I would suggest you get used to working in the Norwegian records with other relatives than these before attempting to find them.
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1814 Marriage of Lars and Anne Katrine, https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16756/51970/27
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You have probably found in other research that it pays to revisit records over and over and ponder what they are really saying. That is a major reason for attaching everything we find as sources in FamilyTree.
Now that I've seen that Henrik's grandmother used the surname Næs but no one else did, I've looked back at his birth record and realized that Næs really is recorded there as part of his given name.
His given name really is "Henrik Næs" even though that looks and sounds quite unusual.
Now you have two options you get to decide between. I'm not sure how to do this since the family emigrated soon after his birth so the only other record for him is the record of their move out of Bragernes (I just noticed that my link to that was wrong. It is https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051125011084 I'll edit it above to correct it.) which also lists just part his first name.
At the time of his birth, was the family sticking with the patronymic system of names which would be most common in 1852 or had they already adopted a fixed surname? In the first case, he should be recorded as Henrik Næs Tollisson. In the second case he would be Henrik Næs Larsson. I don't think there will be any evidence one way or the other. I assume that when they arrived in the US the entire family took on the father's surname of Larson since that style would have been standard in the US but that does not help decide what Henrik was called in Norway. I think you should feel free to just use what you think works best.
I would add a last name to the alternate name currently showing on his record of Henrik Næs since that makes it look like Næs is a last name, which it never was for him.
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Gordon and Shari
All I have seen of him as far as family notes which are kind o f a mess has been Henry N Larsen and the best I can do Is say he married Hilda Johnsdotter but most of it is listed as Johnson or something similar to that which leads me to wonder how correct her name is and NO I cant find her parents either.
Other records though Henry kind of disappears from the family like maybe he moved out of his parents house.
Side note I greatly appreciate all the help
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You might look at this record to study if she belongs as a sibling of Henry. This is a birth certificate for Henrieta, or Hattie Elisa Larsen created after the event so it's accuracy is always to be considered. The ages of the parents are not a good match but everything else seems very likely. I don't recall, was Henrik a drayman? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS34-4BTG?i=3453&cc=2527591
There is a Hattie listed in FamilySearch who was born 2 June 1892 so I'm considering they are not the same person.
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Hilda Josephine Johansen
Norway Baptisms, 1634-1927
Name:Hilda Josephine Johansen Date:23 Jan 1845Christening Date:06 Apr 1845Christening Place:DOMKIRKEN, OSLO, AKERSHUS, NORWAYFather's Name:Johannes Halvorsen
Mother's Name:Caroline Rebekka Christiansdr
Here is my theory that gives Hilda parents
I also think that there is another child in the family for Hilda and Henry according to the record Shari showed me
Let me know if you agree
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Hilda's Find A Grave record indicates she was born 25 January 1850 but that could be inaccurate.
Hilda N Larsen
BIRTH25 Jan 1850DEATH25 Mar 1925 (aged 75)BURIAL
Decorah, Winneshiek County, Iowa, USA Add to MapMEMORIAL ID21303262 ·
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The 1910 Census for Hilda gives a birth year of 1851, the 1900 census gives a birth date of Jan 1850. In the 1895 Iowa State census she was 43 (birth year of 1852). I have not seen the original marriage record but that should be viewed. FHL microfilm 1,026,659. or maybe on Ancestry?
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Here is an image of their marriage showing their ages. She is 23 in 1874 (b. 1851).
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Probable christening of their son Fredrik Olaf 1885.
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Confirmation record for Henriette Elise (b. 10 May 1889)
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4 November 1806 Confirmation of Sophia Mathilda Larsen b. 7 November 1891. You can see more on Ancestry.com
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There is a death certificate for Hilda, you could order it or see if it is online somewhere. Name:Mrs Hilda Larson
Record Type:Death
Death Date:25 Mar 1925
Death Place:Saint LouisDeath
Registration Date:1925
Certificate Number:013814
Record Number:425983
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It is generally best to start with what you know, even if things are a bit off, and try to explain what someone has already said. The article that Shari posted ( http://iagenweb.org/winneshiek/Bios/WB1996/L/Web_HTML/Page011.htm ) states "Henry married Hilda Johnson (20 Jan 1850 to 25 Mar 1924) in Brandvold, Solar, Norway."
I've never heard of Brandvold or Solar before so had to do some investigating. Going through the parish registers, I could not find any Brandvold or Solar. So next I turned to Google and searched for Brandvold. This result came up:
"Brandval Parish, Hedmark, Norway Genealogy - FamilySearch
Guide to Brandval, Norway ancestry, family history, and genealogy: birth ... Contains parish registers from the parishes Brandval (Brandvold) and Lundersæter."
So Brandvold was an old name for Brandval which is in Hedmark, a county I've not done much in. Also, this came up from Wikipedia:
"Brandval is a parish and former municipality in Hedmark county, Norway. Brandval is located in the Norwegian traditional district of Solør. The parish forms the northern part of Kongsvinger municipality. Brandval is situated north of Kongsvinger on the Glåma river."
Which confirms that this is the right Brandvold and why I couldn't find Solar. It is not a county, parish, or municipality but just the name of a general area and is actually spelled Solør.
Next I tried to find records for Brandval parish in 1850 at the Digitalarkivet and on first attempt couldn’t find any except for after about 1865. Then instead of looking for Brandval parish, I looked for Brandval sub-parish and found that in 1850, Brandval sub-parish was part of Grue.
(Side note: the actual Norwegian terms are prestegjeld and sogn. A prestegjeld is made up of one or more sogn. A sogn would have just one church. Some people translate these two as Clerical District and Parish, some as Parish and Sub-parish. Norwegian-English dictionaries generally translate both as Parish.)
(Second side note: I generally record birth places as Farm, Prestegjeld, Fylke (province), Norway. Some people use Farm, Sogn, Prestegjeld, Fylke, Norway. For christenings I use Sogn/church if specified - often it is not, Prestegjeld, Fylke, Norway.)
Now that I knew that according to the above article Hilda was most likely born in Grue prestegjeld, I went to the Family Search historical records searching for children with first name hi*, born in Grue between 1849 and 1855:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=hi*&birth_place=grue&birth_place_exact=on&residence_year_from=1849&residence_year_to=1855&collection_id=1467014&count=100&offset=0
This brought up seven results, three of them girls named Hilda. One was a Johansdatter. Johan often gets changed to John or Jon in records. This Hilda was born 25 January 1851 which is pretty close to the article’s date of 20 January 1850 and your Hilda’s Find-A-Grave source which gives a birth date of 25 January 1850.
Here is the actual record:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070124370424
Now I need to follow her forward in time to see if this Hilda meets up with your Henrik/Henry.
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Here is the same Hilda in the 1865 census for Brandval:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038040001713
She is working as a nanny away from home, so there is no information beyond her name and age. But this does show that she was still in Norway at this point.
The 1875 census is incomplete and does not include Brandval.
There is no Hilda Jo* born 185* in the 1891 census for Brandval.
Checking the move-out records for Brandval, I don’t see Hilda, but there are no entries at all for 1870 through 1875, a likely time for her to have emigrated if she did.
So you are going to have to prove from the US side that the article stating she was from Brandvold really is correct. If you can do that, then the only real candidate for her is the Hilda born 25 Jan 1851 in Brandval.
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@Gordon Collett a real wizard at this Norwegian study. I'm hanging on to every fun detail and trying to sharpen my skills. Thanks for each effort shared.
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Yes definitely Gordon Collett Thank You
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You might like this map. It shows the Solør region, Brandval on the south.
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Thanks for the complement, but you were the one who provided all the starting points through the records you have posted, in particular that biographical write up!
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You're welcome. I hope I have been clear enough that you can replicate my trail through the records, confirm the findings, and learn how to navigate and search these Norwegian records.
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Here is a little more information for you. Doing a parent only search to see if Hilda had any siblings does not bring up any results:
Here is a transcript of Hilda’s birth record since I think that that biography has such detail that the write up really does seem basically accurate and I think that this really is the correct Hilda. People being off one year on their own or their parent’s birth date is pretty common but remembering a wrong birth place and there coincidentally being someone else born in that place with the correct name and correct birth date would be highly unlikely.
Entry: 62
Birth date: 25 Januar
Christening date: 30 do. [ditto]
Name: Hilda Johnsdtr
Status: uægte
Parents: Pigen Karen Hansdtr Engen u Eg og Ungkl. Snedker John Pettersen Gravaas.
Godparents: ?? Maren Sve?dtr Rystad; Tp Karen Olsdtr Sormerad?; ? Anders Oles Nygard, Hans Hans Engen; To. Hans T?sen Kirkenæs. (I don’t know why the priest always seems to start scribbling when it comes to the godparents. I always have a lot of trouble reading them and personally have never found them that helpful. Even here where there is a Hans Hansson Engen there is no way to know if this is Karen’s brother, father, or someone completely unrelated who just happens to also live at the Engen farm.
Translation:
Entry: 62
Birth date: 25 January 1851
Christening date: 30 January 1851
Name: Hilda Johnsdatter
Status: illegitimate
Parents: Maiden Karen Hansdatter Engen under Eg and bachelor carpenter John Pettersen Gravaas.
(I hadn’t paid enough attention again. Although the indexed record for Hilda lists her as Johansdatter, in the actual record, she really is recorded there as Johnsdatter. This is another illustration that you have to alway carefully check original records whenever possible and not rely on indexes.)
Of interest is this entry in the 1865 census for the farm Engen which is noted to be a subdivision of the larger farm Eg:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038040001670
which has as head of the household Hans Hansen. Also on the farm is his widowed mother Marie Amundsdatter.
Since we know Hans’s father was named Hans (I love patronymics - they give you so much information) I can go back to Familysearch and do a parent only search in Grue for father Hans and mother Marie Amundsdatter and see if daughter Karen pops up:
Nope, just an Ole. Someone to check in the records to see if he was born at Engen. But what is strange is that Hans does not show up. Is the family not from Grue at all?
Sometimes backing up one division is helpful. So I’ll modify the search to be in Hedmark rather than Grue and add Hans under first name to search just for him so I don’t get overwhelmed by results.
And there he is:
His birth year is 1824 just like in the census and he was born in Brandvold. So why were these records indexed under Brandvold rather than Grue? I have no idea. But this does illustrate that you have to try searches over and over, coming at the results from different angles.
Trying the previous parent only search but this time with Brandvold rather than Grue gives this:
No results at all, not even Hans. Something is funny in the search engine. This is probably because although the christening place is listed as Brandvold, Hedmark, Norway, the residence is listed just as Hedmark, Norway. So I’ll try the search just with Hedmark with the parents only:
Luckily that gives just 18 results, not 18,000. Looking through for Brandvold and Grue, there are five people born in the right parish, including a Hans and Karen, with parents Hans Hansen and Mari Amundsdr. If you check all these in the parish records and all of them were born at Engen then you can be confident these really are all one family and that you have Hilda’s family back one more generation. Karen being born in 1830 fits perfect for having a child in 1851.
The oldest child was born in 1821 so after you confirm the children were all born in the right place, you can check the marriage registers for 1817 through 1822 and probably find Hans and Mari’s marriage record. The census says Mari was born in Brandvold and marriages almost always took place in the wife’s home parish.
Have fun and if you run into trouble in the parish registers let me know and I’ll point you in the right direction.
Hilda’s father might be more of a problem. Since he was a carpenter, he might have been a wandering laborer just temporarily in Brandvold. Since it doesn’t look like he and Karen ever had any more children, they probably never got married, and he may have left the area. Without more information than his name and a place name which could be his birth place or just his current residence, it can be impossible to learn more. But that is a problem for another day. Which is your main line? Are you descended from Henry and Hilda and so will want to try to figure out who John Pettersen was? Or are you descended from one of Henry’s siblings?
Going back to Karen, in the 1865 census for Brandvold, there is one possibility based on her birth year of 1830:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038040004093
But you don't know if Karen Engen was still in Brandvold or even still alive. However, this Karin is married so you could check the marriage record for her, which would probably be around 1855 based on having a ten year old daughter, and see if this is Karen Hansdatter Engen or a different Karen Hansdatter. I'll let you pursue this on your own (unless I get so overcome with curiosity I can't help myself and start searching!)
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