Help required to find two baptisms in Hamburg circa 1870
Could someone point me in the right direction please to find two baptisms in Hamburg - one about 1870 (I think), and the other in 1871 (I’m sure). The civil registration records in Hamburg start in 1874 I believe, so I’m guessing I need to find the church records but don’t know how to do that. I can’t find them in FS though I’m sure they must be there somewhere.
Henri Gustav August ROZE (born about 1870 in Hamburg)
Magdalene Elisabeth ROZE (born 26 June 1871 in Hamburg)
Their surname is often written as Rose or some variation which often makes things tricky. I think that the parents may have lived lived in Altona at around the time of these births.
Thanks for any help with this.
Antworten
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Hi again,
well, this is quite next door to me 😉
Do you know Archion.de? This is the site which holds many of the (mostly lutheran) church books from Germany. The site requires a paid "pass" to access the digital scans, but it is possible to browse the available church books here: https://www.archion.de/en/browse/?no_cache=1#https://www.archion.de/en/browse/?no_cache=1&path=610987-652047; go to "Norddeutschland: Landeskirchliches Archiv der Evang.-Luth. Kirche" and then to "Kirchenkreis Hamburg-West Südholstein".
You need to know in which parish your ancestors were baptized (or scan all possible ones). The church books are not indexed so you need to go through "by hand".
However, if your ancestors attended the reformed church (as it seems from your previous requests) the records may be in a different place. In this case it may be best to contact the "Evangelisch-reformierte Kirche in Hamburg" https://www.erk-hamburg.de/kontakt/ with an inquiry.
Good luck!
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Yes, I anticipated it would be a case of manually tracking through page by page. Fortunately I only have a narrow window of about 2 years to look through. I actually vaguely remember they lived not far from the "Evangelisch-reformierte Kirche in Hamburg" at one point so I might try and contact them first.
Thanks for the tips Ulrich.
My best wishes, Ian 🙂
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Hi Ulrich,
I’m just going back to a conversation we had a couple of weeks back, where you recommended looking in Archion for two baptism records that I need.
Magdalene Elisabeth ROZE (26 June 1871, Hamburg)
Henri Gustav August ROZE (maybe 1870, Hamburg maybe Altona)
At the time, you also recommended I write to "Evangelisch-reformierte Kirche in Hamburg" https://www.erk-hamburg.de/kontakt/ which I did, but they didn’t get back to me.
I haven’t looked at Archion yet as I’ve been waiting for Ev.-Ref. Kirch to respond. While I’ve been waiting I thought I’d see what other info I could find that would help me to identify where the births/baptisms took place and save me some effort if I had to go through Archion page by page. I figured that it might be a good idea to firstly find the marriage of their parents who I assumed were married about 1870 ish before the two children were born.
So, I had a look in the Hamburg State Archives and found 3 items for their father Markus ROZE ….. and, surprise ! ….
https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/resultatliste.aspx
So, what do you think has happened?
Then I thought I might try my luck on Hamburg Archives to see if Markus had left any breadcrumbs in the 1860s …. And, yep ….
On page 344 of the Geburts- und Taufregister: Alphabetisches Gesamtregister (1816-1866) …
Ro-Sa (332-2 Nr. I a Band 72)
On page 372 of the Leichenregister: Alphabetisches Gesamtregister (1816-1866)
Rob-Sayeck (332-2 Nr. III A Band 72)
What do you think I should do now?
Best regards,
Ian
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Hi Ian,
that's awesome! These unexpected discoveries make family research so exciting...
Let me see if I understand correctly what you have found so far: Markus Roze, which you assume is the father of the two children born 1870 and 1871 in Hamburg, was apparently married before to Elisabeth Juliane Henriette Niemeyer. A child was born by his wife in 1866 which he did not want to legitimize. A divorce was filed in 1873 (so this would have been after the birth of the other two children?). Also there is a Markus Roze who was born and died in 1864 in Eppendorf (district of Hamburg), possibly another child. Did I get that right?
First of all you have to make sure that these docs all refer to the person you are researching (and not to some other Markus Roze). Did you order the listed documents from the Hamburg Archive already? They seem not to be available online. I have not used the Hamburg Archive so far (although it is next door, but my family is not from Hamburg originally)
Best regards,
Ulrich
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Hi Ulrich,
Yes, you're right, this kind of situation I've discovered with Markus Roze is incredibly interesting to me. Your summary is correct. You correctly say that I am assuming Markus is the father of the two children in 1870 and 1871. But maybe they didn’t actually marry? My great great grandmother had already had two children illegitimately before those two, and I know that when she arrived in Australia she flitted around a bit. So maybe there isn’t a marriage record to find? But then on his death certificate it says that his wife had presented their marriage certificate to the registrar. Most likely Markus was the father of the 1870 and 1871 children though.
Another interesting thing is that Markus had 7 other siblings. Four died as infants, but the other three died young (at about age 20) in 1861, 1861, 1862 and then his mother died in 1864. He was having a bad time of it. He was the last child still alive. My guess is that he decided to move to Hamburg after everyone except his father had died. When he got married first time I don’t know yet. I somehow stumbled across a record for an Elizabeth Niemeyer which may/ may not be her. If it is her then it makes the story even more interesting …
From https://www.tote-punkte-ostfriesland.de/suche.php
This Elizabeth was born in Detern which is a very short distance from where Markus was living in Vellage near Weener. So, maybe that is her. Not sure. The details are in exactly the right time period. I’ve put in a request from the FS library lookup to find her in the Detern Ortssippenbücher, but that will take a while before I get that.
Anyway, ultimately, my prime target is to find Markus's marriage record. That document I think will clarify a lot of things. Second target is my great grandmother’s baptism record - I have her exact birthdate 26 June 1871 in Hamburg so if I fail with the marriage record I should be able to find that baptism record hopefully.
I sent an enquiry to Hamburg Archives about those 3 records for Markus but didn’t get a reply. I think I will just have to order and pay for them. May I ask you for a small favour? Can I send you the 2 forms that I have partially completed which need to be sent to the Archives so that they can process my order for the 3 documents? It is in German so I’m a not sure that I completed it properly. If you could just check that I have filled in all the information properly I would appreciate that very much. I have to send them payment when I submit it so I’d like to make sure it is all correct before I send it.
One last thing. How can I get a copy of those 1864 Eppendorf birth and death records? They are important I think.
Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions,
Best regards
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Sure, you can send the forms to my email address ulrich_neitzel@web.de
Regards,
Ulrich
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Hi again,
I made a quick search in the Hamburg Archive and found the the index to the marriage of Markus Roze (I think) https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1559191:
The number 4 means that marriage record is of the year 1874; "575" is the number of the record. The record itself is not available online, but is microfilmed.
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Awesome. That would be him. Can you add that to the other three records I'm ordering if I can't find it in Ancestry or Family Search. I'm looking now.
So, the parish is St George?
And if they weren't married when the two children were born, then is it possible they were registered with their mothers surname (Maria Dorothea Margaretha Elisabeth Ulrich) ?
Regards,
Ian
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