German City
My great grandparents emigrated from Germany to Baltimore Maryland in the late 1840s. In 1871 my great grandfather died in Baltimore and was buried from the First Evangelical Lutheran Church. The recording of his death in the church records indicated from which town and province in Germany he came. I have attached that record. The town is shown in green and the province in pink. I would be most grateful if someone can please help me understand the names of the indicated town and province. Thank you very much. Rick Forster
Kommentare
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Hello Rick,
The record states that Johann George Nass was born on 11 April 1819 in Weissenbronn in Baiern.
"Baiern" translates as: Bavaria.
Here is the link to Weissenbronn, Bavaria, from Meyers Gazetteer: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/21104008
Click on the "Map" link in the gray bar at the top of the entry and Weissenbronn will be marked with a red arrow.
Click on the "Ecclesiastical" link in the gray bar to see the parishes in and near to Weissenbronn.
Here is a link I found online which will tell you more about Weissenbronn: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fenbronn
Note that sometimes the double "s" in Weissenbronn is spelled with the following single letter from the German alphabet: "ß" (called an Eszett) making the name: Weißenbronn. The Eszett represents a double s. So whether the place is spelled Weissenbronn or Weißenbronn, it is the same place.
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Good morning Robert. Thank you very much for your help. I greatly appreciate the time you took to answer my question and to provide a very helpful and informative explanation. This will help me much better understand my ancestors' heritage and to decipher other records. I am truly thrilled to finally know from where my great grandparents emigrated. Thanks again and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend. Rick
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You're very welcome, Rick. I'm glad to hear that the information about Weissenbronn proved useful to you.
Best regards, Robert
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Hi again Robert. Thanks to you wonderful help with John George Nass, I have been energized to find his wife Caroline. I do not know her maiden name. But, I do know she died in Baltimore in 1868 and after much looking I have found her death record in the First Evangelical Church. I hope I can please impose just once more for your help. In looking at her record, and based on your previous explanation, I have recognized that she too was from Bavaria, and her town appears to something like Fellbach. But, I cannot find anything close to that in Bavaria. So, can you please help once more to determine where in Bavaria she was from.
Second, in her death record her name is shown as Kunigunde, but I have always seen her referred to as Caroline. Can you please help me understand the relationship, if any, between the names Kunigunde and Caroline? Thanks again. Rick Forster
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Hello Rick,
The place is either Feldbuch or Feldbach.
The names "Kunigunde" and "Caroline" are two distinct names and as far as I can tell are not related to one another.
Here is the link from Wikipedia about the female name "Kunigunda": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunigunde#:~:text=Kunigunde%2C%20Kunigunda%2C%20or%20Cunigunde%20is,of%20Italy%20(797%2D818)
Here is the link from Wikipedia about the female name "Caroline": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_(given_name)
There is nothing in these articles to indicate that the two names are related.
Here are the discrepancies between John George Nass's 1871 burial record and Kunigunde Nass's 1868 nurial record:
1871: Husband = John George Nass. Wife = Mary Nass.
1868: Husband = George Nass. Wife = Kunigunde Nass.
You should conduct additional research into the death and burial of Kunigunde Nass in 1868 to confim if this is the same person as your Caroline/Mary Nass.
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Hi. Once again, thanks so much for the information. I greatly appreciate it. Your observations about the discrepancies between Caroline an Kunigunde are right on and have caused me to be cautious in my conclusions. One of the reasons it has taken me so long to discover John's wife in the First United records is that I have always been looking for Caroline. I am not sure where you live, so you might not know that Baltimore City did not start issuing death certificates until 1875. Thus a valid death certificate for her does not exist. Plus, there is no mention of her death in the Baltimore Sun newspaper. So church records are the only source of reliable information in that era. But, after I found Kunigunde in the church records, I noticed she matched, almost exactly, the birth and death dates shown on Caroline Norris's stone in Mt Carmel Cemetery in Baltimore. (see attached) The one difference is Caroline's death year and I can attribute that to the stone maker's error due to the new year. I have seen it before. Plus, their grandson George Rohrig is buried with them. He is the brother of my grandmother Rose Rohrig Forster. So, to resolve the discrepancy is why I also asked about Kunigunde and Caroline being related names.
Bottom line, I know with 100% certainty that the grave stone is that of my ancestors. I also know the First United Death Record for John is for my ancestor. And believe strongly that the First United record for Kunigunde is recording Caroline Norris' death, meaning Caroline and Kunigunde are the same person.
What I can't explain is "Mary" and I can't prove the 1867/1868 discrepancy between stone and burial record in Caroline's death year.
So, the addition of the gravestone, I hope, gives credence to my conclusion. Thoughts? But, I always welcome additional eyes on the research and am truly open to and gladly welcome any suggestion you might have. I really mean that as I want to be as sure as possible that I have captured
their history correctly. Thanks very much. Rick
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Here is another try at loading the grave stone.
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Hello again Rick,
In terms of the place being Feldbuch or Feldbach, I am leaning towards Feldbuch because the letter after the "b" is open and looks more like a "u" than an "a".
However, here are the links for both Feldbuch and Feldbach (both in Bavaria) from Meyers Gazetteer:
Feldbuch: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10477019
Feldbach: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10477004
Now a question for you: How did the name "Nass" morph into "Norris"?
Here is the link to George Nass and his wife Mary, living in Baltimore County, and presumably their three sons, in the 1870 federal census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SK9-2S6?i=108&cc=1438024&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AMNSY-9CT
Is this your John George Nass? If so, perhaps this is where the name "Mary" comes from? If this is your family, could Mary be a second wife to John George after Kunigunde died in December 1867?
Looking at the gravestone, I agree with you that Caroline and Kunigunde appear to be the same person given that the birth dates match and I agree that the death year of "1868" is likely an error on the part of the tombstone carver. She died on 29 Dec 1867 and per the church burial record she was buried on 1 January 1868. But the stone would have been carved sometime in 1868 and it would have been easy enough to carve the current year on the stone in error.
Re: Kunigunde vs. Caroline: It's possible Kunigunde thought her name was too "foreign" sounding to the American ear and decided to go by Caroline.
Conclusion: Given the records you have available to you, your conclusion that "Caroline and Kunigunde are the same person" is reasonable and credible based on your research and analysis.
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Good Morning Robert. I totally enjoyed reading your message from last night. Thank you very much for your thoughts and insights. Your analysis is through and I am happy to have some confirmation for my conclusions. As for Nass vs Norris... I have no idea how that happened. However, my great grandparents arrived in Baltimore from Wolfstein Germany in the mid 1840s. Their original name was Foertsch which evolved to Forster. They appeared to use both interchangeably in the 1860s. So, in the same timeframe, to go from Nass to Norris did not seem unreasonable to me. Plus, I have found a living descendant who told me " As far as spelling: I have seen many but your discovery makes more sense since we have always pronounced it “Narse” not N”OR”ris". The 1860 and the 1870 Censuii both confirm, in my mind, that John George Nass is John George Norris. The children match exactly what I previously knew of his family and I knew they lived in District 12.
As for his second wife .. yes.. Mary was wife #2, I think. As you saw in the 1870 Census, Mary appears to be wife #2. His church death record in 1871 shows his wife was Mary. So, I again went back to the church marriage records and found that on May 31 1868 he married Anna Peal. (attached) And, even though Baltimore City did not issue birth and death certs until 1875. They did start issuing marriage certs in 1851. So, I found their marriage index listing (attached). But we now have the Anna vs Mary issue. I believe her name might have been Mary Anna or maybe Anna Maria.
I say this because on Sep 24 1871 at the First United Church, six months after John died, Maria Nass married Josef Rapp (attached). Can you please confirm I have Rapp correct as I am not sure if the double "p" is or is not a special German character? It also appears Maria was from Wurtemburg??
So, I hope you have found this both interesting and informative. And again, I sincerely welcome any thoughts as to where to go next. Thanks. Rick
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Good afternoon Rick,
The explanation of Nass vs. Norris makes sense to me, especially the explanation from the living descendant. Isn't it odd how a simple name like "Nass" can be spelled so many different ways.
Also, your analysis of the additional information about John George's second marriage to Anna Peal, and then Anna/Maria Nass's marriage to Josef Rapp following John George's death is good. I agree that Anna Peal and Mary Nass may be the same person and her full name may be some variation of Anna Mary or Mary Anna. It would be helpful to find Josef Rapp and his wife Maria Nass in the 1880 census to see if you can glean any additional information from that record. It would also be useful if you could find the death records and/or gravestones for this same couple.
Yes, I read the name as: Josef Rapp. And yes, Maria Nass is from Württemberg per her September 1871 marriage record.
I did find our discussions both interesting and informative. Thank you.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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Hi Robert. All the help you have provided has been a huge help. Thanks again. I now have a much better understanding of the Norris/Nass grandparents. While Margaret Norris/Nass was my great grandmother, her husband was George Rohrig, one of my great grandfathers. Attached is Margaret & George's marriage record from the First United Evangelical Lutheran Church in Baltimore, which appears to show George's home in Germany. Could I please ask your help again in trying to figure out where in Germany he was from? Thanks. Rick
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Hello Rick,
The image is so faded where the key word is that I can't make this place out. I would suggest you post this image as a new request to the community at large and see if another community member can figure out what this place is.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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That marriage simply says " Georg Roehrig aus der Rheinpfalz und Marg. Nass from Baltimore." Unfortunately, there is no town listed here for Georg. The "Rhenish Palatinate" was a region that became part of the Kingdom of Bavaria.
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Thank you, Baerbel.
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Robert & Baerbel. Thank you so much. While the record may not provide an exact location, it does greatly narrow his home location. I know that he served in the Civil War and recently discovered that his pension application record from that service is available from the National Achieves. I am in the process of ordering it as they claim it should show his place of birth. Maybe he gave a more exact location when he filled out his application. Thanks again for your help. Rick
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Hi Robert & Baerbel. Good afternoon. I am writing in the hope that you can please help me once more. Attached is the marriage notation for my great grandfather, John George Foertsch/Forster from St Paul's German Reformed Church in Baltimore. I am trying to understand John's birth location in Bavaria. It appears to be Lesbach but I can find no modern location with a similar name or anything close. Can you please help me understand when he may have been born. Thanks very
much. Rick
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What do you know about his religion? Is there a chance that he was Catholic before he married?
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Hello Rick,
I, too, read the place as: Lesbach. I have also tried "Lerbach" and "Sesbach", all to no avail. I didn't find any similar place names in Bavaria (using Meyers Gazetteer) which looked promising.
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Hello Rick,
I found the following 1841 Baltimore arriving passenger list entry on Ancestry for Joh. Geo. Förtsch: https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8679&h=1483014&tid=&pid=&queryId=c393d430557d31a3affa4ea75b5c05a0&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FVk127&_phstart=successSource
If you look at the actual image, it is entry number 200. Note that Ancestry indexed his age incorrectly as 27 when it is actually 24; this would make his calculated birth year 1817.
Is this your ancestor? If so, the column after his name is "Last Residence" and here the place appears to be: Labach.
I found two places called Labach in Bavaria in Meyers Gazetteer; here are the links:
Labach in Oberbayern in Bavaria: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20002020
Labach in the Pfalz in Bavaria: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20002021
"Labach" is close enough to "Lesbach" to consider this, especially if this immigrant is your great-grandfather.
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Hi. Thank you both for your tremendous insight and help. I greatly appreciate it. To answer your questions, I have no evidence he was Catholic. In Baltimore he was always aligned with the Lutheran Church so I always assumed him to be Lutheran. And Robert, yes, I believe the person arriving on the Gustav in 1841 is my great grandfather. I have also found his naturalization papers from 1849 and while they do not reference his arrival date specifically, they do say that by 1849 he had been in Baltimore for at least 5 years. Since the town on the ship list Labach seemed close to the Lesbach on his marriage listing. I had assumed them to be the same. But I have been fooled before and know an assumption is not evidence, which is why I so valued your opinions.
I do know from his grave stone that he was born on March 10 1816. I also know his original name was Johan George Foertsch which evolved to John George Forster. I have attached the only other evidence I have for him. Severla years ago, I found what I think is his baptismal certificate. But, there are two discrepancies: fit the name is Forsch and second his birth was in Wolfstein. A fellow researcher was kind enough to translate it for me. So, based on what we know, do you think this might be his baptismal cert? Thanks again. Rick
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Hello Rick,
Yes, I do think this could possibly be your great-grandfather's birth/baptismal record.
Here is the link again for Labach in the Pfalz, Bavaria (from Meyers Gazetteer): https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20002021
In the gray bar at the top of the entry, click on the "Ecclesiastical" link and scroll down to the places approximately 17 miles from Labach and you will find a place called Wolfstein. So Labach and Wolfstein are reasonably close to one another.
Also keep in mind that Wolfstein is where your ancestor was born. According to the passenger ship record Labach was your ancestor's last residence before he arrived in Baltimore. So there is no discrepancy between these places: one place is where he was born and the other place was his last residence. And the 1859 marriage record says he was from "Lesbach" (not that he was born there). So there is no conflict among these three records (other than Labach vs. Lesbach). Finally spelling was not standardized at this time and the scribe wrote what he heard, so the spelling variation between "Forsch" and "Foertsch" is not necessarily a game changer.
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Good morning Robert. Thanks very much for your thoughts. I am happy with your conclusion about his baptismal record as it has been the foundation for my research on Johann. There is still a lot I do not know about him, so I will press on and see what else I can uncover. I greatly appreciate your help as a sanity check. Being over 200 years old makes him hard on whom to find conclusive documents so a 2nd opinion is essential. Thanks again. Rick
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You're welcome, Rick. Glad I was able to assist you in your research.
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