Looking for birth information
I've recently learned that my great-grandfather was born in Grenagh, County Cork. I have a birth date and know his parents' names, but don't have any other information about him. I've looked in the civil registers and followed other leads to no avail.
The name is William Smith b. 17 Jan in either 1863 or 1865. I've tried looking for anything about him for 1865 without luck, so I suspect he was born before 1864. In fact 1863 is what is on his headstone here in Canada but there is no proof available (we assume my great-grandmother knew his year and place of birth).
His father was Michael Smith (deceased prior to 1899) and his mother was Margaret Killagan (written as Killochan on William's marriage certificate). She was born in July 1845 in Youghal, County Cork to parents Garret Killagan and Johanna Walsh. I have no information about Michael.
William moved to Scotland in 1899 or before and was married there that July.
Thank you for any assistance or leads. I may consider paid genealogical assistance.
Kommentare
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@Hayter David Elder @anthonyphilipclarke1 any ideas here?
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Mmm - I thought that this was an easy one --- WRONG!!!
Interesting to note - NO persons with the surname KILLAGAN born, married or died in Ireland 1845-1900. Or KILLOCHAN for that matter. Not a bit of wonder you've had trouble finding them.
Surname possibly KILGALLEN - births etc around Swinford but NO Michael SMITH marriage listed. Swinford is no where near Cork . The variant KILCULLEN is the same - all up at Co Mayo not Co Cork.
Will come back to this inc sources for the surname.
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@BillSmith53 I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here looking for the spelling of Garrett KILL*** the rational being that he , Garrett , should turn up relatively easily and would add more family members. This has not been the case. However the following has turned up.
Margaret KILLOCHAN death Glasgow - has the death cert been obtained as Scottish records are excellent for the information they hold. Worth a look on scotlandspeople - the individuals parents are usually listed. This is a pay per view site. (Death info shown on familysearch)
Below is what appears to be a baptism for a sibling of Margaret including the url for the record.
Mary Kelliger 1855 19 Dec 1855 0 Youghal, Cork, Ireland Garrett Kelliger Joha Walsh Female sibling of Margaret
If she is indeed a family member there are 10 years between her & her sisters birth. One would expect there to be more siblings.
Redbarn, Youghal - is the townland for the parents of Margaret Killoghan at the time of her baptism
Griffiths Valuation checked re Redbarn, County Cork and that area - no obvious family members listed.
Below are variations of the spelling of KELLIGAN, KELLIGER
Margaret Killegan Baptism16 Jul 1845 Youghal, Cork Garret, Johanna View Record
Mary Kelleghan Baptism 20 May 1846 Middleton, Cork John, Catharine View Record
Juli Kelleghan Baptism 26 Sep 1838 Dromtarriffe, Cork Clauis View Record
Robert Kelligan Baptism 22 Oct 1853 St Mary's, Cork city, Cork Henry Hanna View Record
Mary Killigan Baptism16 Jul 1848 Killeagh, Cork Daniel, Ellen View Record
Joanna Kelligan Baptism 26 Oct 1842 Killeagh, Cork Daniel, Mary View Record
Cors Kelligan Baptism 6 Sep 1841 Kinsale, Cork Pat, Mary View Record
John Kelligan Baptism16 Aug 1840 Glanmire, Cork Thomas, Eliza View Record
Mary Kelligan Baptism19 Mar 1850 Fermoy, Cork John, Mary View Record
Daniel Kelleghan Baptism 22 Sep 1851 Conna, Cork Danielis, Margta View Record
Johanna Kelligan Baptism30 Mar 1837 Killeagh, Cork Thoms, Cath View Record
Patrick Kelligan Baptism 25 Aug 1837 Killeagh, Cork Danl, Mary View Record
Mary Kilegan Baptism 4 May 1835 Killeagh, Cork Danl, Mary View Record
Mary Kelligan Baptism 27 Jan 1835 Killeagh, Cork Thoms, Cath View Record
John Kelleghan Baptism 10 Mar 1835 Macroom, Cork James, Kate
All these records are from County Cork & make it look like the surname variation KILGALLEN is wrong and could be discounted.
Re Michael SMITH I have not been able to make any headway with him either. It would be a protracted search, going through the various record sets and discounting those to try and reduce the field somewhat. If, as is shown on Familysearch, that he died in Glasgow I would be making fast tracks to scotlandspeople to try and find his death cert which would name his parents (usually). But be aware this is a pay per view site. Look at the wrong image and you've lost your money/credits. But it should give you some information. But should you decide to follow this line - be cautious as there are likely many Smiths to be viewed and each image, of relevance or not, will cost.
wishing you luck in your search
David
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Hello Hayter,
Thanks very much for your insight. I believe this is my great-great-grandmother, I already have a copy of the baptismal record - please let me know if you think she may not be.
Margaret Killegan Baptism16 Jul 1845 Youghal, Cork Garret, Johanna View Record
I am a member of Scotland's People and thought it would be easier to work backwards from my great-grandfather's marriage in 1899, but as you have surmised, there are just too many Smiths to review, and I've already spent some money looking. I tried looking at Scotland's 1891 census to find out if William lived with or near his mother, but without any luck. Scotland also had a landowner's survey every 10 years, so I did find a possibility in 1895 - a Margaret Smith living a few doors down from a William Smith, she at 20 Well Street in Barony with a house and shop, and he at 32 Well Street. She was also residing at 20 Well Street in the 1911 census. So it's either a possibility or coincidence. William's future wife was living with her parents in 1891, and got married to her first husband later that year (he died in 1896).
Thanks for your efforts, and if you have any other thoughts please let me know!
Cheers,
Bill
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Hi Bill - yes I believe you are right about Margaret's record. The interesting thing is the Mary KELLIGER record. They give an approximate 10 year period with the family, Garret & Joanna living at Youghal. Redbarn for the first record and although the home isn't mentioned in the second, both are Youghal, that's the important bit.
I would have thought there were other children born and would take a hard look at the registers or register in question to find other family members and see what movement could be made there. There could easily be transcription errors - OR - did the family move away for a period.
That's another variation on the surname although not much else other than the birth location.
Keep searching - the records are there somewhere.
David
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Thanks David. Yes, the baptismal record of Mary Kelliger is interesting, I think the last name from the handwriting is actually Killegan, but hard to decipher given the writing. This would be a sister of Margaret, and I agree if she was the eldest, there would usually be other siblings born in-between, some of whom could be infants that died after childbirth or as children. May I ask if you know if the other people listed on Mary's baptismal record, Michael Cunningham and Biddy Lynch, are witnesses? I've only seen witnesses on a marriage record before.
I'm not so sure about the record from England. The mother is listed as Jullia Calligan, with daughter Mary listed as age 6, same age as Margaret in 1851. While I won't rule out the possibility of a relationship to the Killegans, as I always keep an open mind, it seems unlikely to me.
Cheers,
Bill
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Tonight I did find this interesting confirmation record from 1867 in Liverpool, England, which has been transcribed as a record for a Maria Killigan and could be Mary's record given that the person bringing forward the nomination was Johanna Welsh, her mother I presume! What do you think?
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And there's also a child, Johannes, born to Johannes Tyson and a Maria Kelleghan in 1881 in Dublin City which could also be Mary and her family.
By the way, I'm using the library edition of Ancestry, which will expire for online users at the end of this year, so I don't have a regular subscription. Anything after that I'd have to verify through use at a local library.
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Just thinking about the gap between 1845-1855: That was the time of the Famine (1845-1852). The family could have moved away to seek work, food or welfare/assistance in another town. There may have been children who either died young of starvation, or who were aborted or victims of infanticide.
Maps like the one of this page (https://brilliantmaps.com/potato-famine/) show that the area around Youghal was affected fairly heavily (20-30% population decline)
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Definitely something to consider, thanks. Given that I can't find any record of my GG's birth in Ireland, and that his mother might have relocated to England with at least one of her daughters as per an entry above, I may do a search of British records to see if he might have been born there rather than in Ireland, before eventually relocating to Scotland.
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Something to consider, thanks. Given that I can't find a record of my GG's birth in Ireland, and that his grandmother may have relocated to England with at least one of her daughters, I may review British records to see if I can find anything about the family. It could be that they stayed there until he relocated to Scotland. That does pose a question as to why his birth certificate and all other records I have encountered indicate he was born in Ireland.
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Hi Bill. That's an interesting document and its given me a bit of a head scratching session trying to understand it. I'm happy for anyone to challenge/correct this as Latin is not my hotspot!
Nomina Confirmatorum - name of the person being confirmed
Etat - age
Nomina Imposita in Confimatione - a new name "imposed" in the confirmation (a new name taken on by the person being confirmed. )
Nomina Patrinorum - name of patron/godparent
So although there's some commonality with the different names and your family I don't think they are the people you seek sadly. A cursory ancestry search seems to show persons fitting the names of the people being confirmed.
However as I have already said this is my first time dealing with Latin in documents so I'm more than happy to be corrected here.
Re the 10 year gap & the famine that does indeed have a plausible ring that the family may have moved away. Never thought of that. The Dublin connection is a possibility - would there be a marriage record ? Given the date there should be. Well worth looking for.
David
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Thanks David, I think you're right about the line for Johanna Welsh - it appears her confirmation name is Margarita. There is a line further down for Maria Killegan b. 1855 whose confirmation name is Theresa, however without any other connection, and because it's in England, I suspect that it is likely another Mary Killegan. I will try and pursue finding an Irish marriage record for Johannes Tyson and Maria Kelleghan to see if it amounts to anything.
Bill
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