Wondering about note on baptism record - posthuma note?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-XP13-G?view=explore&groupId=M94Q-D8Q
Upper left there is a record for Anna Maria, parents are Michael Kuth and Elisabetha Kiss.
What is listed under Anna Maria's name? Someone told me it's "posthuma" and means her father had died before her birth. Makes more sense that it would mean SHE died and was baptized after birth.
Any thoughts?
項留言
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It is posthuma, and it does mean that she was born after her father's death: she is a posthumous child.
Her father died at the end of March: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-XP1J-V?i=309&cc=4133831.
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Julia: Thank you SO much! I have an official (with seal) document saved by my great grandfather (Albert Louis Pak/Paakh, 1856-1944 from Miskolc).
It's a baptism certificate issued by Tokaj's Roman Catholic Parish on 21 August 1860 about the baptism of Anna Maria KURTH, who appeared to be baptised on 28 July 1827 and born after her father's death. Her parents were Mihály KURTH and Erzsébet KISS, inhabitants of Tokaj. Godparents were György KARÁCSONYI and Mária GYÖRGYEY.
I have no idea how these people relate to me nor why Albert had this document. His mother-in-law was Amalia Kurth (1845-1910) so I assume it related to her in some way. Why did she need to get a copy of this in 1860? No idea. She married Ferencz Konecsny and had children (my grandmother Ilona Konecsny, 1869, in Košice, Slovakia) but I cannot find a birth record for Amalia.
Albert, Ilona, and Amalia all immigrated together to the U.S. in 1904 so, perhaps, this document was identification in some way?
Any ideas are welcomed! So appreciate you're helping.
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Looking for help with this record.
Joanne Kurth born 20 May 1818.
Parents Michael Kurth and Elizabeth Kiss - not sure if same couple as above since I found a marriage record of 1824.
What notes are made by the parents' names? What do the next 2 columns mean? Not Catholic? Then what?
Thanks for any help!https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-XP9M-NQ?view=explore&groupId=M94Q-D8Q&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2zVDA1F4InIhyTrWML6cLkigXrFQ_Io6RyPsM4BBhGnoSjWEV1BX2tpDk_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRlcw
Record is in the middle of the second page.
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I think the text in the corner is meant to continue the line above.
Date: 20th [of May 1818]
Officiant: as before
Child: Joanna
Parents: ["N.N." = "name unknown" crossed out] Mich[ael] Kurth, leg. pa. per mat., Elisabetha Kiss
Occupation: [can't decipher]
Religion: R.Cath., Helvetic Confession [=Reformed]
Parents' residence: K. Tokaj
Godparents: Petrus Molnár and Maria ?órgei
Religion and residence [of godparents]: Catholic, TokajPresumably you're talking about this marriage, in August 1824: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-XPB1-T?i=249&cc=4133831.
1824. 28th Aug.
Groom and bride: Michael Kúrth, age 53, R.Cath.; Elisabetha Kiss, age 32, H. Conf.
Occupation: town judge
Residence: Tokay
Witnesses: Noble Georgius Karátsonyi, Ignatius FrantzAnd then there's the death in March 1827, then the posthumous child in July of the same year.
1827 [day cut off] March. Deceased: Michael Kurth, husband of Elisab. Kiss, age 54 years, RC, town judge, residence Tokaj, provided with all sacraments.
1827 8th July. Child: Anna Maria, posthumous. Parents: Michael Kurth and Elisabetha Kiss. Occupation: town judge. Religion and residence: RC, HC, Tokaj. Godparents: Georg. Karácsonyi, Maria Görgei.
Despite aging only one year in the space of three, the father in 1827 is clearly the same as the groom in 1824, and I'm pretty sure it's also the same parents in 1818: I think the reason the entry starts off like an illegitimate birth is that the child was legitimized by the later marriage of the parents. That would make sense of the highly-abbreviated things squashed into the corner: legitimate father per [later] marriage. (How that would've worked with a well-respected profession like town judge, I don't know.)
The equivalence could be relatively easily verified or refuted if I could just figure out that dratted occupation in 1818, but I'm not sure of any of the letters, especially the first, so I'm not getting anywhere with it.
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Again, wonderful information. Would it be "senator"? Someone else on Facebook group thought it was.
Do you know if the illegitimate baby, Joanna, would have had the name of Joanna Kiss or would it change to Kurth once her parents married?
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I considered and discarded "senator", because there seems to be one letter too many for that, and also because I am not aware of anything in Hungary that was ever called anything like a senate — but I just now looked up szenátor, and apparently, it was sometimes used in the sense of "town council member". So maybe it is that, in which case I would say "case closed, yeah, it's him".
"Legitimization" is basically synonymous with "getting Dad's name".
(It went in the opposite direction, too: my great-grandfather had a cousin who was forced to use his mom's husband's name, even though said husband hadn't been in the same county in years. The first thing the cousin did on his majority was to change his surname to his mom's.)
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Any thoughts on why I might have this document pertaining to Anna Maria's birth? (see June 19 comment above)
Advice on how to find Amalia Kurth's birth records? I only know her name (sometimes listed as Maria) and dates of born 26 Oct 1845, died 1910 Philadelphia. Her father is listed on her death certificate as Frank and mother Elizabeth.
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What is your source for Amalia's 1845 birthdate? Per her marriage record in Kassa, it is nearly a full generation off:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RQB-NQR
Film 4948125 Image 192/679 (Kassa RC marriages)
1860.
158. 2 October. Franciscus Konečny, single, born in Studenitz in Moravia, RCath, railroad guard, age 33 years; and Amalia Kurt, single, born in Tokaj in Hungary, RCath, servant, age 32 years.
Announced three times.
Witnesses: Georgius Kurt RCath innkeeper and Josephus Simko RCath cook.
Residences: railway station 280; St(?) Joseph street 211.The information about Studenitz and Tokaj is repeated in annotations/corrections on Ilona's baptism (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RQY-QJD?i=284), but is not mentioned for her two older sisters (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RQY-WW4?i=9 and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RQY-7LL?i=86).
(Don't take my translations of the witness occupations above as gospel; I'm being lazy and haven't actually checked my memory.)
I think the 1860 baptismal certificate/extract from Tokaj must have been preparatory for the marriage in Kassa? That is, it appears they believed that Anna Maria is the same person as Amalia-sometimes-Maria. (Although if they did actually have that extract for the marriage, why is her age off by a year from it?)
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Our source for Amalia's birthdate has been the 1910 US Census (April) which lists her as 66. Her death certificate lists her as 65-3months on 14 July, 1910. She died of heat prostration and senile debility - which does seem more likely for someone older than 65. Her death record has Frank listed as father (but I think it was her husband's name) and Elizabeth listed as mother. No last names of them on the death certificate.
It appears likely that Amalia IS indeed Anna Maria and for some reason chose to lie about her age!
Ilona, her third daughter, is my great grandmother.
Many thanks again. I love solving the mystery of this document!
By the way, marriage date was 2 Oct 1860, Amalia's birthday was 26 Oct….so she wasn't quite 32 yet but seems to have rounded up for the marriage record!
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Amalia Kurth - we assumed her year of birth from the 1910 U.S. Census where she is listed as 66 (would make birth year 1844), death certificate says she was 65 3 months when she died 14 July 1910 (so birth year of about 1845 - this certificate also lists her father as "Frank" and mother as "Elizabeth" with no last names).
The death certificate index (on Ancestry) lists father as Frank Konecsni (which seems likely to be actually her husband) and mother as Elizabeth Gulash.
Thank you for the wedding record - I did not have that.
So…perhaps the mystery is solved. Amalia IS Anna Maria but she started lying about her age.
She died at 65, cause listed as heat prostration and senile debility. Not impossible at that age but more likely if she was actually much older? I have a photo of her and she looks older than 65!
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Anna Maria's baptism was at the end of July in 1827; you said that the extract has it as the 28th, although the 2 is (quite literally) cut off on the image that's on FS. The marriage on 2 October 1860 was 33 years, 2 months, and a few days after that, so if the person entering it in the register had looked at that extract, he should've written the bride's age as 33.
It occurs to me that if the clerk had consulted that extract, the bride's name should be Anna rather than Amalia — so it seems likely that the age and other details were written down based on oral report, probably from the bride herself.
The great patriot Kossuth Lajos famously didn't know his own birthdate; he was fairly certain that the year was 1802, but could only guess at the month (probably September) and day (mid-month, maybe the 19th) — and nobody can look it up, because the relevant church register was destroyed in a fire in 1810. That was in Monok in a Lutheran family rather than Tokaj and Catholic, but those are not actually all that far apart. (14 miles as the crow flies.)
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You are correct.
I wish I could add photos to this as I could show you the official document I have that details Anna Maria's birth. It clearly states 28 July.
Your note makes me realize that the 26 Oct date comes from Amalia's death certificate. No other source existed for her birth/baptism date (until we connected this document that they had) so we used that date.
I guess we'll never know why she adjusted dates and her age. Name might be just that Amalia was the name she went by.
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