Please help with the attached two birth/baptism records for Johanne . #44 --found in Family Search
Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPVW-1ZMH
Ancestry.com
Family Search
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP2R-LLGN
ancestry.com
Réponses
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I am unable to view the FamilySearch records. My response is solely based on the two Ancestry records.
Yes, the written record itself is the same in both records. It's the indexing that is different.
The child is born illegitimate, and therein lies the confusion.
In the first Ancestry record, the indexer gave the child the father's surname of: Gammelin, and recorded the child's birth date incorrectly as: 13 Mar 1824.
In the second Ancestry record, the indexer gave the child the mother's surname: Progeskÿ, misread the father's name as "Gammtin" rather than "Gammelin", and recorded the child's birth date correctly as: 13 April 1824.
Translation of the record:
Number: 44
Child, Johanne Dorothea Friederike, conceived out of wedlock.
[NOTE: There is no surname written in this column for the child.]
Parents:
the specified father: Adolph Gammelin, a seaman
Mother: Dorothea Progeskÿ
Day of birth: 13 April [1824], before midday at 10:00 am.
Day of baptism: 2 May [1824]
Baptismal sponsors:
Johann Pepian?, citizen and master locksmith
Friederike Böhek/Bösek?, a servant girl/maid
Friedrich S________?, citizen and master cooper
Comments:
Have you found a subsequent marriage record for this child's parents? You will need to decide how you want to enter the child's surname here. If the parents subsequently marry, I would probably use "Gammelin". I recall in this child's 1850 marriage record which you posted recently, she was recorded as: Johanne Dorothee Friederike Gammelin. This would indicate that her parents did eventually marry.
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Thanks for confirming the birth date of 13 April 1824.
Yes, there was an 1850 marriage for Johanne under the surname Gammelin and more children with the surname Gammelin. I guess I will use Gammelin when entering her in family tree.
My understanding is that we are now able to edit names in family search. Is there someone I could talk to about this in the case of Johanne?
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Robert, I have found three siblings for Johanne and they all have multiple listings in ancestry.com with the mother's surname spelled differently. Just want to confirm that her name is Progeskÿ. Still looking for a marriage for Johanne's parents.
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So I found the birth/baptism record of the second child born in 1825 - Adolph Friedrich. Does it say anything in the record that he was illegitimate? Haven't found the parents' marriage yet, but it appears it may have been after 2 May 1824 and before June 26 1925.
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No, I don't see anything that indicates the Adolph Friedrich is illegitimate. In fact. his mother is now identified as "Frau" meaning: Mrs.
So I think you have narrowed down the time frame when this couple married.
In this record, the mother's maiden name also looks like: Progeskÿ or perhaps Prozeskÿ.
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Marie:
Here is the link for this couple's marriage:
Right-hand page (p. 654), record number 13 at the top of the page. The bride's maiden name is: Prozeskÿ.
The date of the marriage is: 13 August 1824. This is where you predicted it would be. Nice work!
P.S. Remember to be very wary of Ancestry indexing. In this case, the Ancestry indexer read the bride's surname as: "Rozes"!! It's clearly "Prozeskÿ.
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I found the additional children's birth records in Fürstenberg. The mother's maiden name is: Prozeskÿ.
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I really appreciate your going above and beyond on the quest!
I looked at the children's records again and it appears that the letter in question - g or z, has the top loop open like a z instead of closed like a g.
I guess I'll go with Prozesky and put an alternate name of Progesky in family tree -- does that make sense? I assumed that I use Prozesky/Progesky instead of Prozeskÿ/Progeskÿ since the 2 dots over the y just distinguish it from a g?
It looks like the marriage and birth of children all take place in Fürstenberg.
Robert, could you translate the marriage record of Carl and Johanne for me. I'm curious who the witnesses are.
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Based on all the records I have been able to look at for this family, I think the name is clearly: Prozeskÿ.
When I was only reading the very first record, the name looked to me like "Progeskÿ" but when I read the other records, it became clear it was a "z" not a "g".
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Here is the translation of the Gammelin-Prozeskÿ 1824 marriage record:
Record no. 13
Names of the betrothed:
Carl Adolph Friederich Gammelin, seaman, 21 years old.
Johanne Sophia Dorothea Prozeskÿ, 23 years old.
[Here you can clearly read her name as: Prozeskÿ.]
Names and Status of the Parents [only the fathers are listed]:
[Groom]: the legitimate eldest son of Heinrich Siegismund Gammelin, cook at Ankershagen.
[Bride]: the surviving legitimate eldest daughter of the late citizen and master tablemaker Johann Friederich Prozeskÿ from here.
Day of the wedding: 13 August [1824]
Days and Places of the Marriage Banns:
on the 4th, 5th, and 6th Sunday after Trinity in Fürstenberg.
Comments:
4th Sunday after Trinity: 11 July 1824
5th Sunday after Trinity: 18 July 1824
6th Sunday after Trinity: 25 July 1824
Oddly enough there are no witnesses listed; in fact, there is no column for witnesses in these records.
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Robert, thanks so much for your help with this family. I appreciate all your hard work.
Best,
Marie
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You are very welcome, Marie!
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Regarding the marriage record for Carl Adolph Friederich Gammelin and Johanne Sophia Dorothea Prozeskÿ -- I cannot make out the German words for the occupation of Heinrich - cook and Johann - master tablemaker. Could you please help with that.
I am trying to decide what to do with the y in the last name of Prozeskÿ - how to put that into family tree. Even though the 2 dots over the y just distinguish it from a g, I am inclined to keep the German spelling of Prozeskÿ, but not in the comments section under the name -- Iin the old Gothic script a "y" can easily be confused with the letter "g". So the two dots are placed on top of the "y" only to show that it is a "Y" and not a "g" and not as a diacritic to change the sound, as in the letters "ä", "ö", and "ü". What is your take on this?
Marie
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Re: cook:
". . . Heinrich Siegismund Gammelin, Kochs . . ." ---> drop the "s" which is a case ending = Koch = cook.
Re: master tablemaker:
". . . gewesenen Bürgers und Tischler meisters Johann . . ." ---> drop the "s" which is a case ending = Tischler meister = master tablemaker.
Re: Prozeskÿ:
I generally record names as found in the records and if necessary add an alternative. It doesn't make sense to me to record it one way in one place and a different way in another place. Others may get confused when they see "ÿ" in one place and "y" in another place.
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Thanks for confirming my feelings on the name. I will leave it as Prozeskÿ and also note in the comment section for Johanne and her father - In the old Gothic script a "y" can easily be confused with the letter "g". So the two dots are placed on top of the "y" only to show that it is a "Y" and not a "g" and not as a diacritic to change the sound, as in the letters "ä", "ö", and "ü".
Really appreciate your help with this.
Marie
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That's what I've been told the function of the two dots above the "y" is: to distinguish it from the letter "g".
Also, ÿ can function as the letter i. In early parish records, I've seen the word for the number 2 written as "zwei" and "zweÿ".
FYI: the two dots above the letter "ÿ" are called a diaeresis, and should not be called an umlaut. That was something I recently learned as I was originally calling the dots over the "ÿ" an umlaut.
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Thanks for that information. I noted this in my German research info.
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