Reserve ordinance if another patron has reserved ordinance further down the line?
If another patron has reserved a sealing to spouse, and shared it with the temple, but the initiatory and/or endowment is not done, can I reserve that ordinance and share with the temple?
If not, I suggest a change in the system. If ordinances are not valid until done in order, doesn't it make sense that the reservation can be made to have the ordinances done in order?
The new rule that only one person can have reservations shared with the temple is leaving a lot of records with single ordinances undone. Thanks! Carol Cash
Best Answer
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1) Dovie Ann Brindle: All ordinances are green. You can reserve all of them. B/C/I/E/SP have two year reservations, you can share them with the temple. SS has already been shared with the temple and has a 90-day reservation (green with stopwatch). You can reserve SS in order to complete yourself. You cannot share it with the temple because it is already shared with the temple. It would remain on your personal reservation list.
2) Lexie Mae Page: All ordinances are green for everyone except you. The ones you reserved with the temple, anyone can take the as 90-day reservations. One SS is a regular green icon. You can also reserve that and share it with the temple.
3) Chesley Henry King: All ordinances are green. You can reserve all of them. B/C/I/E/SP have 90-day reservations, you can complete them yourself but cannot share them a second time with the temple. His two SS have regular green icons. You can reserve these and have two year reservations or share them with the temple.
4) William Walter Gilbert and Evie Jarrett: Same as the others. Any green ordinance that says Ready can be reserved either as 2 year or 90 day reservations. You can share 2 year reservations with the temple. The intent with 90 reservations is that you are taking them from a temple list to complete yourself.
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Answers
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Thank you for contacting Family Search. Here are some articles that will help explain the correct order of ordinances. When sealings are done prior to the completion of the other ordinances, you may reserve and share with the temple the other ordinances.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
Thank you
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Carol
I am just another 'lowly' User/Patron ...
[ And, I happen to be a Member of the Church ... ]
Further to what has already proffered ...
This is an ongoing dilemma, for many Members of the Church.
The matter, has been canvased, on numerous occasions, in the various 'iterations' for the 'FamilySearch' Forums.
One does not really have to be too concerned ...
We have been advised, that regardless if "Ordinances" are done 'Out of Sequence', not to worry; as, those "Ordinances" that are done 'Out of Sequence' simply DO NOT take effect, UNTIL the prerequisite "Ordinances" are "Completed".
And, most importantly ...
"Ordinances" that are done 'Out of Sequence' DO NOT have to be done again; as, they are STILL "Valid".
Here are some "Knowledge Articles" in 'FamilySearch':
Ordinances performed out of order
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/ordinances-performed-out-of-order
Which states, among other things:
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Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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And ...
Correct order of temple ordinances
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
Which states, among other things:
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Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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And ...
Of course ...
Why are the temple ordinance dates out of order in Family Tree?
Where it states, among other things:
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- The ordinances were inadvertently or intentionally performed out of order in error.
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Plus ...
Most IMPORTANTLY ...
In one of the aforementioned "Knowledge Article":
Ordinances performed out of order
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/ordinances-performed-out-of-order
Which states, among other things:
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It is preferable to have the ordinances done in sequence
[ Note: The Words ... It is preferable ]
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And ...
In the other of the aforementioned "Knowledge Article":
Correct order of temple ordinances
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
It also states, among other things:
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A deceased couple can be sealed before their individual ordinances are done. Likewise, a deceased child can be sealed to deceased parents before the parents are sealed and before the parents’ individual ordinances are done.
If a sealing ordinance was done out of order, you should simply make sure that the rest of the ordinances get done . You do not need to report the issue to FamilySearch Support. Nor do you need to redo the sealing. The sealing becomes valid after the individual ordinances are done.
[ And, once again ... ]
Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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Now ...
All That Said ...
As proffered by 'Gordon' ...
Here is a reference, specifically about "OrdinancesReay", regarding "Sealing to Spouse".
"Knowledge Article", in 'FamilySearch':
How do I find family names for the temple with Ordinances Ready?
It also states, among other things:
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Before you start
Notes:
- Ordinances Ready does not determine if pre-requisite ordinances have been completed when sealing-to-spouse ordinances are requested. Please ensure that baptism, initiatory and endowment have been completed for each individual before proceeding with a sealing ordinance.
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So ...
That Said ...
Really ...
The choice is yours ...
As, to whether or not, you proceed, with the "Ordinances", that you received through "OrdinancesReady".
Plus ...
As an aside ...
Remember, that the "Temple" Work, of "Sealing to Parents", relates to the Child; and, NOT, the to Parents.
So ...
That Said ...
Regardless, of the status, of "Temple" Work, of the Parents, the "Sealing to Parents", for a Child, CAN be undertaken.
I know, that this might not give you comfort and address your concerns; but, I hope that this gives you some additional, insight; and, more perspective.
Brett
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Thank you for taking time to answer! The article about out of order ordinances is very helpful. My issue is with those ordinances reserved by another patron and shared by the temple.
The new rule is that only one patron at a time can reserve and share with the temple on one record. For example, If I see that a patron has reserved a sealing and shared with the temple, and that ancestor is ready also for an endowment, can I reserve the endowment since it needs to be done first? Or do I have to leave the endowment ready and keep checking the record to see if the sealing has been done?
This is what I find inefficient and frustrating. I have many ancestors' work to do and to keep coming back to check would not be using my time wisely.
I suggest a change in the system so that reservations cannot be reserved out of order.
Thanks for your help, Carol Cash
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Carol
Your Example:
If I see that a patron has reserved a sealing and shared with the temple, and that ancestor is ready also for an endowment, ...
Your (two part) Question:
If I see that a patron has reserved a sealing and shared with the temple, and that ancestor is ready also for an endowment?
Or do I have to leave the endowment ready and keep checking the record to see if the sealing has been done?
Provided, that you are referring, to the "SS"; and, NOT, to the "SP" ...
Short Answer: 'Yes', you can - certainly "Reserve" the "E"; and, most likely DO the Work.
You DO NOT have to wait, until the "SS" is "Completed".
But, of course, there is a 'caveat' ...
IF, the prior "Temple" Work (ie. BEFORE, the "E"), has NOT been "Completed"; THEN, that "E" that you "Reserved", WILL have the 'Status' of "Waiting"; and, CANNOT be proceeded with (ie. "Printed"); and, undertaken; UNTIL, that prior Work is "Completed".
And, of course, the "E" would have to be done; BEFORE, the "SP".
IF, the "SP" was "Reserved", by anyone; THEN, that "SP", would ALSO, have the 'Status" of "Waiting", if the prior Work (including "E") was NOT "Completed".
I hope, that this may help/assist, somewhat.
Brett
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Where are you seeing that the ordinances have been reserved out of order? And where have you seen any "new rule is that only one patron at a time can reserve and share with the temple on one record"? I haven't personally run across that and would like to know exactly what you are seeing and where.
Are you sure that this is not a situation in which the endowment has a green temple with clock icon and the sealing has a blue in progress icon?
This means that the person has reserved all the ordinances, shared the endowment with the temple, but has kept the sealing on his or her own reservation list. Some people do this because they just want to do sealings. You can certainly reserve the endowment and complete it yourself within 90 days. That is what the other people want you to do so that they can then go do the sealings. You cannot reserve the endowment and share it with the temple because the clock on the icon means it is already shared with the temple. It does not need to be shared a second time.
To better understand what you are seeing, a screen shot of someone ordinance page showing this situation would be helpful, or at least the ID number of a person so we can look at the ordinance page.
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Please look at Dovie Ann Brindle, L674-H9D. SS has been reserved by another patron. All others need to be done. May I reserve those and share with temple? Will they go on my personal reservation list? Thank you for your help.
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Also, Lexie Mae Page, LBHX-NKB. I have reserved her ordinances and shared with the temple. Her husband, Chesley Henry King, GW9R-S18, has had all but his SS to Lexie reserved by another patron. May I reserve his SS to Lexie and share with the temple? Will it go on my personal reservation list? Thanks again.
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Also William Walter Gilbert, K2W2-1W8, married to Evie Jarrett, GQV2-YX7. William's ordinances are all complete except SS to Evie. However, Evie has had her B, C, I, and E reserved by another patron and shared with the temple. May I reserve and share her SS to Walter since the rest of his ordinances are completed? I don't want to add too many reservations to my personal list since I am close to the 300 cutoff and It is hard for me to get to the temple more than once a month . One temple a few hours away and appointments fill up quickly. Thanks!
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Getting back to you comment that there is a new rule "that only one person can have reservations shared with the temple," could it be that you are referring to the old fact that once someone has shared an ordinance with temple, no one else can share that same ordinance with the temple? The only thing new is that others can now complete that ordinance at any time instead of it sitting on the temple list for years.
As far as "leaving a lot of records with single ordinances undone," in the examples you provided, I would guess a couple of things.
Where only the SS is reserved, it looks like the person reserved all ordinance for one of the couple but none for the other. That would still pull in the SS for the other half of the couple.
Where only B/C/I/E was reserved, it was probably that the person reserving the ordinances was so concerned that SS and SP not be done before the individual ordinances that those were left unreserved instead of trusting that whatever happened as far as order of completion that current temple policy is approved and acceptable. The other possibility is that one user reserved the ordinances before parents and spouse were added to the person and when another user added the parents and spouse that second user did not reserve the now available ordinances.
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Gordon, may I suggest different wording? Instead of "you cannot share" say something like "Ordinances already shared with temple do not need and so are not available for additional sharing. You can reserve ordinances shared by others. You will have 90 days to do them."
Focus attention on the open path ahead.
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Thanks to all who answered. It is very clear now and I don't think I will have any further questions.
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