Ridiculous, just WRONG. Idea; where, I have, interacted; &, Accepted Answer, NOW, Permission Problem
FamilySearch
Plus, "Moderators" (involved) ...
.. @1ByrdLady
.. @AnPen
.. @BMWall
Subject: This is "Ridiculous", just WRONG. An "Idea"; where, I have, both, interacted; &, had an 'Accepted Answer', NOW, "Permission Problem"
This is "Ridiculous", just WRONG ...
An "Idea" ...
Well, I think, it may have been an "Idea"; but, to be honest, with ALL the "Moving" around going on, it could ORIGINALLY have been a 'Question' in "Q and A" ...
As, I now have been "Notified", that my 'Answer", was made an "Accepted Answer" ...
Where, I have had, both, extensive interaction; and, as of the last, had an 'Accepted Answer' ...
NOW, when I try to access that "Notification" I get:
There is NO reason WHY the ORIGINAL 'Post' should be "Restricted".
The name of the ORIGINAL 'Post' MAY have been something like ...
Multiple Marriages, Step-parents, and Adopted Individuals
But, to be honest, I really, DO NOT know, which is the ORIGINAL (ie. "Correct") URL, for the ORIGINAL 'Post'; as, NOW, one "Moderator" has "Closed" the 'Post; and, another "Moderator", has supposedly, "Started" the 'Post', which was NOT the case.
This is the "Last" URL from the "Notification" (ie. Minus the 'Comment' reference):
But ...
That said ...
These are some of the VARIOUS references that I NOW have for the 'Post':
https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/comment/260313#Comment_260313
[ "Notification" that My "Answer" was made an "Accepted Answer" ... ]
https://community.familysearch.org/en/messages/4854#Message_7492
[ A 'Message' to Me from a "Moderator" of "Great job ..." in regard to My "Answers"/"Comments" in the ORIGINAL 'Post' ... ]
https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/comment/262346#Comment_262346
[ The "Last" reference, that I can find, for the ORIGINAL 'Post', in MY "List", where another Participant, made a "Comment' ... ]
The latter was the penultimate 'Comment'; as, mine was the "Last" (ie. Ultimate) 'Comment'.
The INCLUSION of 'FamilySearch' "Support", has REALLY 'Muddied the Waters' (ie. 'Messed Things Up'), with regard to the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum.
The "Community.FamilySearch" Forum was ORIGINALLY about, Users/Patrons; HELPING, User/Patrons.
The "Community.FamilySearch" Forum, is NO LONGER, the "Community" Forum.
The, 'So-Called', "Community.FamilySearch" Forum, is NOW, the 'FamilySearch' "Support" Forum.
WHY, bring 'FamilySearch' "Support", into the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum, in the (current) FORM, that has recently happened.
The 'FamilySearch' "Support", COULD have 'Sat', on the 'Side-Lines'; where, "Matters" were 'passed-onto' the 'FamilySearch' "Support" Network, IF; &, WHEN, required.
'FamilySearch' "Support", has NOW, just TAKEN OVER the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum, 'holus-bolus', PUSHING aside, all those, who have worked tirelessly in the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum for a number of YEARS.
Plus, those from of 'FamilySearch' "Support", who are (I presume) "Moderators", are adding 'Answers'; and, then, making THEIR 'Answers'; as, an (and, in some cases, THE) "Accepted Answer"; when, in fact, in MANY cases, their 'Answer" is NOT even an answer at all, to the ORIGINAL 'Question'.
I am sorry ...
The "Community.FamilySearch" Forum is NOW just a NIGHTMARE ...
Especially, with all the ... "Permission Problem" ...
Perhaps, 'FamilySearch' "Support" is just being a little 'overzealous'; and, needs to be 'reigned-in' a little, to sit more on the 'Side-Lines'; and, come in, IF; and, WHEN, called or needed.
'FamilySearch' "Support" is NOT needed, in each; and, every case.
Many of those regular, ordinary, User/Patron, participants in the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum where handling the "Basic" 'Questions' quite well; and, knew when to refer such up to "Support".
Just my thoughts.
Brett
ps: I am sorry to say it; but, many of those regular, ordinary, User/Patron, participants in the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum, are certainly MORE "Experienced", than those, in the "Lower" 'Levels', of 'FamilySearch' "Support" (as, evidenced, some responses from 'FamilySearch' "Support", in the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum.)
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Comments
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Perhaps I might have phrased certain comments another way, but I know Brett is very passionate about these issues and often makes comments that are in other users' heads, but are reluctant to articulate.
The reason I gave up on telephoning Support (and stuck to the use of the former FamilySearch / GetSatisfaction.com forum was that I only got to speak to inexperienced missionaries who (after up to 45 minutes on a call) had still been unable to provide an answer a query. Little better was sending a message - whereby the response was usually a "copy / paste" one that, again, did not resolve the issue in question.
Some of the responses by the moderators, who have recently been assigned to "Q and A" have been really good - particularly to inexperienced users queries. However, the negative points have been:
(1) Moderators apparently deciding what is an "Accepted Answer" - when only the originator should be able to indicate that.
(2) Responses being provided that still do not address the direct issue(s) at all.
(3) This "Ideas" section now being the "poor relation" of "Community", instead of the improved platform that was meant to be set-up by FamilySearch to replace the GetSatisfaction forum.
Please do not think I lack appreciation of the efforts of volunteer moderators (and even full-time employees), who provide responses at "Q and A" - though perhaps less frequently in "Ideas" and under the various "Groups" that I have joined. However, I would like them not to think they have to answer every item raised, but to leave certain posts to be answered by more experienced FamilySearch users - whether other moderators, or those of us in the "general community" who have direct understanding of the specific issue.
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Further to my comments above, I have been checking out lots of "Q and A" posts this afternoon (UK time) and can now really empathise with Brett's exasperation over this specific "Permission Problem" issue.
There just must be a better alternative to having this page displayed, when (presumably) the item has been removed and passed / escalated to a particular FamilySearch department. If this is what is happening with these "Closed" cases please let us see a message that advises exactly why the post / thread has disappeared.
If FamilySearch wants the job of answering / addressing queries in "Q and A" to be exclusively for moderators, please tell us. Otherwise, please help us "ordinary users" to continue to help others, instead of making us feel exasperated, in knowing we could probably give a good attempt at answering a question, but no longer have that option in many cases.
Update (to comments above):
Reading Brett's comments yet again, I realise he is not just complaining about not being able to participate in a discussion, but the fact that he has done so, received an "Accepted Answer", yet still the post is closed, without anyone now being aware of any input by him, or others.
From a variety of perspectives, what is currently happening is just wrong.
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@Brett . @Paul W Your points and frustrations are all very valid.
There is a lot of bumping into each other and some growing pains we are experiencing. Many of the support people are new to the community along with new processes. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. They have been trained their entire mission to act immediately and make sure every question gets an answer. Now they are being told to think differently about support.
They are being told they now need to not be focused on answering every question, but to make sure that questions are answered correctly. That is a subtle but significant difference that takes time to adjust.
The community acts a little bit like a classroom of kids sometimes. Nobody likes the one kid in the front of the class that feels the need to blurt out the answer to every question the teacher asks before others get a chance to participate. It eventually gets tiresome and the rest of the class shuts down from participating. We don't want people to feel the need to comment on every post. We will work toward getting to that point. We want lots of participation from a lot of different sources. However, this is again, a huge shift in mindset.
While it can be frustrating now, I think another way to look at this is that, unlike other support organizations, these people are volunteers and at their core really are community members. Their current role is temporary. These people are learning. As they become familiar, many may get the bug and start to develop a passion as well. Everyone has something significant to offer.
As far as the processes go, so that content is not being deleted, or at least so that you can reference it later, that is being ironed out. Again, we change as we learn.
If we have a desire to see the community grow over time, we need to be patient with one another and treat each other kindly and with respect. I personally don't see getting support involved in the community as a bad thing because of where our support comes from. Getting support involved is an opportunity to introduce a dedicated and passionate audience to the community.
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To touch on a couple things @Paul W mentioned.
(1) Moderators apparently deciding what is an "Accepted Answer" - when only the originator should be able to indicate that.
- Many questions really do only have one correct answer. Identifying what that answer is immediately turns a discussion into a knowledge document that others can use in the future. So they don't need to ask a question.
- However, to your point, there are other options, when it isn't cut and dry that support probably needs to do better at such as asking follow up questions to the patrons, asking patrons to accept answers, allowing for multiple accepted answers. That takes time to learn.
(2) Responses being provided that still do not address the direct issue(s) at all.
- This is good feedback and worth having further trainings with people. They need to also make sure not to close every post. Sometimes closing posts is very appropriate and keeps discussions from getting out of hand.
(3) This "Ideas" section now being the "poor relation" of "Community", instead of the improved platform that was meant to be set-up by FamilySearch to replace the GetSatisfaction forum.
- We are actively working toward improving this. Please be patient. There are a lot of moving parts and pieces so it takes time to turn a big ship around. When it comes to feedback, you will often see a lot of negative feedback. Hopefully as we implement processes in the future we will start to see the ideas, and feedback area become more constructive.
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Many thanks for your response, Caleb.
I do appreciate there have been improvements made recently and that you are working to meet the needs of the community here. I hope - and believe you have - accepted this all as constructive criticism. I can understand the difficult position the missionaries face - in being criticised if they don't answer a query and likewise if they don't always get their responses quite right!
I'm sure our common basic aim is to improve the experience of FamilySearch users (of whatever level of knowledge) and to collaborate with employees, moderators and our other fellow users to make the whole website (especially the Family Tree project) one of which we are all delighted to be involved.
However, please appreciate that individuals (like Brett) also volunteer many hours of their time, every week, in an effort to help others and naturally want to be assured that these efforts are continuing to be considered worthwhile. In particular, that their time has not been wasted by, say, the sudden, unexplained disappearance of a well-presented response, which fully-addressed the poster's query.
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I would characterize my recent interaction with the Q and A section of this ...whatever it is... as Not Friendly.
I asked a question about an ancestor who has disappeared from Search Records. (No matter what part of her indexed record I search for, she is no longer on the list of results.)
I got some well-meaning but highly nonsensical replies. I have no idea whether they were from moderators or other users, however, because at some point, a moderator moved the thread to some unspecified destination.
This, of course, means that I can no longer see my question or its replies, because they have all gone to the PPPP (Perpetual Permission Problem Page).
I complained in a private message to the moderator who had moved it, and got a reply that it had been moved to some sort of behind-the-scenes engineering queue. Eventually, a different moderator got in touch privately and conveyed the information that the record's disappearance has something to do with the fact that I had corrected the indexing on it at some point. (I had removed the godmother's surname that had been indexed as the mother's.) The problem has been noted to exist and is on the long list of things for the engineers to fix.
OK, fine, I'll try to be patient and all that, but.
As I pointed out to that second moderator, people need to know about this problem. If you edit an index entry, you may be rendering it invisible until the engineers figure out how to fix this bug. And if you're searching in an editable collection, you can't trust the results even as much as you used to, because there may be records that match your query 100% that it's not showing to you because they've gone invisible due to this bug.
With the way my question was made to disappear from Q and A, the next person with a suddenly-invisible record will have to re-invent the wheel in order to eventually maybe get the same answer I did. This makes no sense, neither from the customer's perspective, nor from the programmer's. Customers who try to search for others with their question will come up either empty-handed, or with nothing but the PPPP. Programmers will only get data about the error from the most persistent or lucky customers, with no possibility of coordination or crowdsourced data-gathering.
FS, please re-think your approach to Q and A. On the internet, things are made to disappear if there is something egregiously wrong with them: extreme danger or unforgiveable offense or privacy breach. Making a perfectly valid question about an acknowledged bug disappear as if it had been filled with expletives or something is ...counterproductive.
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I wondered how you had managed to find out the name of the moderator who had moved your thread. Then, by clicking on the name accredited as having Started it, I realised that (in FamilySearch terminology) "Started" (by) actually means "Closed" (by)!
Thank you for leading me to see how one finds the name of the moderator involved. If this action affects any of my posts I can now send a polite, private message to inquire "why?". Well, this will only be necessary if it is a "PPPP" closure, of course (great acronym) - as if the post / thread has been moved to another section of Community, I and others can continue to participate in the discussion, in spite of it being "Closed" .
I'm confident @Caleb L is doing his best to sort this muddle. Yesterday, I found it highly confusing to discover that of eleven "Closed" discussions in "Q and A - Other", over a three day period, six were still visible (in other sections), whereas five led to the "Permission Problem" page. Unless the five threads that can not longer be viewed contained breaches of the code of conduct, it was really difficult (from the nature of the questions) to come to any other conclusion than these appear to be purely arbitrary decisions, on the part of the moderators. (Most did not seem to involve any issue that needed to be escalated to engineering, or sent elsewhere.)
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@Caleb L , you don't have to turn a ship that was aimed in the right direction to start with. This Community forum is designed very poorly. This puts missionaries trying to function in it at a serious disadvantage. As a Temple and Family History Consultant, I won't even mention the Community when I do training because I know it is going to be nothing but a frustration for users.
I am a user who had a post disappear this week and I am not happy. Not only is my post no longer visible, it has disappeared from the list of My Discussions. Totally unacceptable!
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For posts which disappear completely leaving no trace at all, I would like to cross reference a post by gasmodels. on another topic that is relevant. https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/comment/263980/#Comment_263980
"There is an issue with the design of the forum that can cause the issue that you see. When a post is moved the default is not to leave any "breadcrumbs" as to where the post went. To leave a trace the person moving has to check a box. Frequently we see individuals moving a post forget to mark the box so the post effectively disappears. In my opinion the default should be the other way around. The moved label is left unless there is some specific reason for hiding (which should be very infrequently). Just my opinion - hopefully a person with power will see and make changes"
Gasmodels. comment was added to my topic Escalated posts and Vanishing posts. Thumbs down and needs to be changed..
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